Solar Electricity

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and our grandparents (well to be realistic our great grandparents didn't take a bath but once a month MAYBE. If the garden didn't do well they starved. Ive the game population was low they starved and so did there kids. They had to work from sun up to sundown and even longer to just feed there familys, heat there homes and buy fuel for the lanterns. They didn't have entertainment becasuse they were to tired for it at the end of the day. They did this winter summer in 100 degree heat and -30 cold. Then they beat there bodys up so badly most were wore out of dead by the time they hit 60. If that's what you want then go for it. Me ill take modern technology. take a shower every day heat up some lunch in the microwave, turn the knob on the thermostat to get my heat and buy what I WANT to eat at the store. I eat venison and veggies I grow because I like the way they taste not because its all I have to eat. End of the day ill sit in the recliner and watch some tv thank you. I have no more want to live like my great grandpa then I do to go to a dentist without novicane or have me leg sawed off because its infected while I bite down on a chunk of wood Good old days weren't really so good.

Whether solar and/or wind are viable sources of power is determined by need. Our grandparents lived without power that didn't involve fire. We are tied to the power grid by convenience, not need. Our dependence on electricity is created by the availability of power, and what it does to make life more comfortable, not need
My personal investigation and the experiences of others, make me believe that unless there is no alternative, it's not practical.
However, if you don't mind the original financial outlay, it can be a break-even proposition after 7-13 years if no major break down is encountered.
If temporary replacement in a storm situation is your aim, a generator may be a cheaper alternative.

[mold maker]

Like you say, Loyd, it is your choice and not because of need.
The folks that live beyond the grid, do so by choice also but want to take the modern technology with them as they move farther into the wilderness.
That's how most of the West was settled. It wasn't because they needed gold or electricity.

[MaryB]

No that system is grid tie and will offset most of a 740kwh load per month. The batteries are optional! And the batteries I quoted have a 20 year life span, they are not cheap golf cart batteries like I use. And panel life goes far beyond 20 years! I know of 50 year old panels still in use producing 80% of rated output.

ya but youd have to factor in that it may be paid off in 7 years but you also durning that time with your system have to probably buy a new set of batterys 3 times (that's 10k) also replace things that do fail ($?) in that 20 years and at the end start all over with new panels ect and if I'm reading you right that's just to supply "critical load" 6-12 hours in an outage. So basically does what my 400 dollar 5k generator does in an outage. It runs on gas or propane and is hooked to my 500lb hog and could run steady for about any length of electrical outage. It will run my house and my sons apartment without having to shut off anything that includes two freezers and two hot water tanks and the water pump. granted I understand yours also supplys at least a portion of your electricity day to day. I sure wouldn't want to try to live off my generator alone. But for even a once or twice a year outage it works just fine and I can buy propane enough for years for a grand to run it. But a normal 3 bedroom home with 3 kids and a dog that's electric use was similar to the average on grid home would take a lot more of an outlay in cash then what you did. Maybe twice that. I have no doubt it works for some that are willing to put up with sacrifices in the way they use power but most aren't these days. If money was no object id have solar, wind, a automatic diesel generator and still be connected to the grid. But most are building for day to day living not survival and most aren't those people on those shows in Alaska that want to be self sufficient. Bottom line is the cheapest way is still the grid if you can get hooked up. Add 500 bucks for a generator and spend a grand on some propane to keep in reserve for outages if they concern you. Even a 500 dollar generator and a couple 5 gallon cans of gas will get you through 99 percent of outages. If it weren't the cheapest route power companys would either be out of business or lowering there rates to compete. But right now they don't have the need to do either. There still constructing even coal fired plants every day in this country. Some day the technology will no doubt be there. that is if the big power corporations don't snuff it. But it probably wont be in my lifetime.

[MaryB]

My system is 7 years old. Maintenance so far is a couple gallons of distilled water to top off the batteries and to check the bolts holding the panels down once a year. They have survived 90mph winds and 3/4 inch hail. My system offsets about 1/2 my electric bill each month plus gives me 7 days of backup heat if needed. Plus it powers my ham station 24/7 so if needed I can provide communications which I have done twice when the phone system went down and the cell service for the area(cut fiber optic cable both times).

Yes solar CAN pay for itself in 7 years but it is not for everyone. A grid tie only system removes the battery need and maintenance, you use the grid as your battery by spinning your meter in reverse with excess power and pull from the grid at night when you need power. Downside is no backup power in an outage.

Is solar for everyone? Nope. Is it "green"? Heck no, panels produce toxic waste when made and when recycled. Can it require maintenance? Yup! In areas with little rain panels need to be washed to keep dust ff, I have to sweep snow off in winter... Does it require sacrifices? NOPE, I know a guy in WI who is solar/wind powered and they have AC, use lots of electric appliances... he is to far off the grid to even get power so he produces his own. His backup generator runs about 200 hours a year to provide a power boost as needed.

And I did my entire install, no electrician, just had the electrical inspector sign off on it! I was tired of trying to start a generator at -20 during a snowstorm, lot easier to flip a switch and be back in business with power.

[snowwolfe]

Very interesting thread to read. Totally blown away by how much some of you pay for electric per month. Everything in our 2,300 sq foot house and 1,000 sq foot shop is electric except for a gas water heater. Even our furnance is electric. But it converts to gas if the temp is below 32. We run the AC 16-18 hours a day in the summer.
Our electric bill averages $90-$110 a month, every month of the year. We do supplement with wood heat once in awhile during the winter months. We run two full size freezers and two large and one small refrigerators all the time.

[6bg6ga]

My system is 7 years old. Maintenance so far is a couple gallons of distilled water to top off the batteries and to check the bolts holding the panels down once a year. They have survived 90mph winds and 3/4 inch hail. My system offsets about 1/2 my electric bill each month plus gives me 7 days of backup heat if needed. Plus it powers my ham station 24/7 so if needed I can provide communications which I have done twice when the phone system went down and the cell service for the area(cut fiber optic cable both times).

Yes solar CAN pay for itself in 7 years but it is not for everyone. A grid tie only system removes the battery need and maintenance, you use the grid as your battery by spinning your meter in reverse with excess power and pull from the grid at night when you need power. Downside is no backup power in an outage.

Is solar for everyone? Nope. Is it "green"? Heck no, panels produce toxic waste when made and when recycled. Can it require maintenance? Yup! In areas with little rain panels need to be washed to keep dust ff, I have to sweep snow off in winter... Does it require sacrifices? NOPE, I know a guy in WI who is solar/wind powered and they have AC, use lots of electric appliances... he is to far off the grid to even get power so he produces his own. His backup generator runs about 200 hours a year to provide a power boost as needed.

And I did my entire install, no electrician, just had the electrical inspector sign off on it! I was tired of trying to start a generator at -20 during a snowstorm, lot easier to flip a switch and be back in business with power.

I guess maybe you can get a inspector to sign off on it if you live in the sticks. Where I live you first have to take a test and pass that before you can wire and once you do that you are very limited as to what you can do and then of course there are the fees involved the test fees and the inspection fees. It was all designed to make it so the electricians in the area were the only ones doing the work. Another stick in my side is that we can no longer change a simple gas water heater. Got to show a contractors licence first in order to even purchase a gas water heater and then there are the fees, the building permit and inspection fees. I'm just amazed that they would allow you to wire your system after all an electronics degree doesn't mean much to most people.

[Lloyd Smale]

not quite as bad here but one thing for sure is youll get looked at with a magnifying glass if you do your own. I know the local inspector well. Hes actually not only our electrical inspector but is also the decon at our church. When I wired my pole barn he knew me and knew I did know what I was doing and treated me like a contractor. He basically came over to inspect and had a cup of coffee and gave me a sticker. About the same way he treats the local contractors because he knows them personally. But if my neighbor would have wired his barn it would have had ever outlet and every circuit checked and if ANYTHING wasn't to code he would have walked away. Here you do have the right to do your own home wiring but youd best have a code book and stick to it by the letter. They don't except wiring something that's not code even if it makes sense. He told me VERY few pass inspection the first time and you get charged for every time he comes to inspect. Thankfully I don't foresee having to do major wiring again because hes retired and so am I and I wouldn't get the same treatment today. My barn surely wouldn't pass a close inspection. Its safe and if not safer then code as I used bigger wire then I even needed too but I didn't pay much attention to outlet locations ect. I put them where I wanted and at the level I wanted. Same with switches, fuse panels, wiring for back up power ect. When I first started as a lineman it was a lot more slack. All you had to do was to install an entrance panel one breaker and one light and outlet and you could then get inspected, then after the inspector left do what you want. Not anymore.

I guess maybe you can get a inspector to sign off on it if you live in the sticks. Where I live you first have to take a test and pass that before you can wire and once you do that you are very limited as to what you can do and then of course there are the fees involved the test fees and the inspection fees. It was all designed to make it so the electricians in the area were the only ones doing the work. Another stick in my side is that we can no longer change a simple gas water heater. Got to show a contractors licence first in order to even purchase a gas water heater and then there are the fees, the building permit and inspection fees. I'm just amazed that they would allow you to wire your system after all an electronics degree doesn't mean much to most people.

[Lloyd Smale]

Very interesting thread to read. Totally blown away by how much some of you pay for electric per month. Everything in our 2,300 sq foot house and 1,000 sq foot shop is electric except for a gas water heater. Even our furnance is electric. But it converts to gas if the temp is below 32. We run the AC 16-18 hours a day in the summer.
Our electric bill averages $90-$110 a month, every month of the year. We do supplement with wood heat once in awhile during the winter months. We run two full size freezers and two large and one small refrigerators all the time.

ive allways been told that cost of living is low in TN. You electric rates have to be much lower then the country average. Do you know what a kwh costs there?

[Lloyd Smale]

My system is 7 years old. Maintenance so far is a couple gallons of distilled water to top off the batteries and to check the bolts holding the panels down once a year. They have survived 90mph winds and 3/4 inch hail. My system offsets about 1/2 my electric bill each month plus gives me 7 days of backup heat if needed. Plus it powers my ham station 24/7 so if needed I can provide communications which I have done twice when the phone system went down and the cell service for the area(cut fiber optic cable both times).

Yes solar CAN pay for itself in 7 years but it is not for everyone. A grid tie only system removes the battery need and maintenance, you use the grid as your battery by spinning your meter in reverse with excess power and pull from the grid at night when you need power. Downside is no backup power in an outage.

Is solar for everyone? Nope. Is it "green"? Heck no, panels produce toxic waste when made and when recycled. Can it require maintenance? Yup! In areas with little rain panels need to be washed to keep dust ff, I have to sweep snow off in winter... Does it require sacrifices? NOPE, I know a guy in WI who is solar/wind powered and they have AC, use lots of electric appliances... he is to far off the grid to even get power so he produces his own. His backup generator runs about 200 hours a year to provide a power boost as needed.

And I did my entire install, no electrician, just had the electrical inspector sign off on it! I was tired of trying to start a generator at -20 during a snowstorm, lot easier to flip a switch and be back in business with power.

so if I'm not being to nosey whats your electric bill on average every month for the power your system doesn't supply? How much does your solar system actually save you a month on average?

[6bg6ga]

not quite as bad here but one thing for sure is youll get looked at with a magnifying glass if you do your own. I know the local inspector well. Hes actually not only our electrical inspector but is also the decon at our church. When I wired my pole barn he knew me and knew I did know what I was doing and treated me like a contractor. He basically came over to inspect and had a cup of coffee and gave me a sticker. About the same way he treats the local contractors because he knows them personally. But if my neighbor would have wired his barn it would have had ever outlet and every circuit checked and if ANYTHING wasn't to code he would have walked away. Here you do have the right to do your own home wiring but youd best have a code book and stick to it by the letter. They don't except wiring something that's not code even if it makes sense. He told me VERY few pass inspection the first time and you get charged for every time he comes to inspect. Thankfully I don't foresee having to do major wiring again because hes retired and so am I and I wouldn't get the same treatment today. My barn surely wouldn't pass a close inspection. Its safe and if not safer then code as I used bigger wire then I even needed too but I didn't pay much attention to outlet locations ect. I put them where I wanted and at the level I wanted. Same with switches, fuse panels, wiring for back up power ect. When I first started as a lineman it was a lot more slack. All you had to do was to install an entrance panel one breaker and one light and outlet and you could then get inspected, then after the inspector left do what you want. Not anymore.

I'm not knocking inspection by any means. I've seen stuff sneek past inspectors that is totally wrong. For example I'm low voltage A/V and I have had electricians put 120vac in my conduits or in a floor box that contained mic and line circuits and they didn't use a divider.

[6bg6ga]

I simply don't buy the idea of 20 year old batterys. Looks good on paper but in the real world figure about 50% of that depending on their use/abuse. Temp has a lot to do with battery life also. Ideal yearly temps will yeald longer life but zero, sub zero will cut life considerably. Seven year pay back? Please do print itemized info to confirm payback figures.

[snowwolfe]

ive allways been told that cost of living is low in TN. You electric rates have to be much lower then the country average. Do you know what a kwh costs there?

Base Charges
Customer Charge: $11.71 per month
* Energy Charge:
Summer
First 800 kwh: 8.062¢ per kWh per month
Each additional kwh: 8.062¢ per kWh per month
Winter
First 800 kwh: 7.896¢ per kWh per month
Each additional kwh: 7.896¢ per kWh per month


Hope this helps. Company is called Volunteer Energy Cooperative. Our house was finished Feb 2016. The contractor did an excellent job making sure all the holes were sealed, good windows, etc. It is 2x4 walls with normal fiberglass insulation in the walls and blown in insulation for the attic.

[Echo]

If this is a roof mount the angle of the panels to the sun may derate the panels to work with that 7KW inverter. Most roofs are the wrong angle and pitch to make the best use of the sun. If the earth realigns itself with your panels we'll have more problems than an overloaded inverter. Working load is usually 80% of max load which would be 5,600 watts peak. I have only built offgrid systems but electrical standards are the same.

Pole mounted panels usually have more output with better alignment to the sun and better air cooling. Hot panels produce less electricity. Most gridtie solar firms only do roofmounts. Might be kickbacks from roofers LOL.

If it's going on the roof ask a roofer. Best of luck.

Flat roof, tilt angle optimized, facing South...

[Echo]

Echo - Our place is about 15 miles south of Tucson and we are on Tucson Electric which I assume you are as well. Our house iis 10 years old and built to be energy efficient. Our house is about 1,400 square feet - single story - stucco with cement tile roof. Mine you, we are "snow birds" - we keep the air conditioning at about 80 degrees when we are gone but our highest bill was in August (we weren't here) and that was $100.

I'm just curious -how big of a house and how old is yours? One or two story? What you state for a month average seems high to me even if you are year round resident - or perhaps I am just not burning that much electricity. I have heard others who have moved here about how high the electrical bill is - I don't know where many of them have moved from but I can tell you we pay much more for electricity back in Michigan than we do here.

We are in a 55 plus community and several her have added solar to their roofs but I have never heard just who much they have saved or the pay off on it. We certainly have enough sunlight here to power a system though! LOL


It's just curiosity on my part and no criticism intended - I'm just wondering how old your house is and how energy efficient it is as I would imagine that much of your electrical usage is going towards AC? While the solar may very well be a good move for you, is there any way to make you house mor energy efficient n the process with better insulation, windows, etc. to save on calling/heating when necessary?

We are retired and there is just the two of us which makes a big difference - and we are always conscience about not "wasting" energy but we do keep the house AC running as needed as neither of us like a hot house. Your situation may very well be different - especially if you have a family, kids, etc. which adds to the electricity usage for sure - i.e. more shows, more washing during the week, etc. which can eat up electricity and gas in a hurry.

Good luck with your solar and I hope you'll post how it all works out.

Single Story, about 2600 Sq ft, slump block, no stucco, flat roof bought it new in '74, so it's 43 years old. Good roof and roofer is coming this week to service it.

Roger on the sunlight - I have solar heat for hot H2O, works fine

I use mostly LED's & CFL's, but still have a few incandescent's - got double-pane windows decades ago, and they work nicely, both heat and noise. And water heater is gas.

I'm alone, wife passed away 7 years ago, and no replacement yet, although still auditioning. Don't cook much, utility load is light, used my oven last night for the first time in ages (flat bread pizza - Yum!).

Here's hoping...

[Echo]

My highest electric bills are in the summer and I've never had one top $130.00 The what I consider lower bills I can atribute to going to LED lights everywhere in the house that the lights are used quite a bit. Common sense when using the dishwasher and other units that take a considerable anount of electricity and produce heat need to be considered. In other words use the electric dryer at a time of day where the heat from it con't contribute to higher room temps and the same goes for the dishwasher.

Would you mind telling us if your home in AZ is a two story? Type of insulation, amount of insulation, type of windows and so forth. I've seen people tie up a goodly amount of money in a home with bad windows, bad insulation or lack of. Everything comes into play.

Single story, ~2600 sq ft (4 br), slump block, double pane windows, no stucco, roof well insulated. When we bought the house (1974) three kids were with us...

[Echo]

Sorry, the math still doesn't add up for me to consider Solar or Wind energy. You have the initial cost of the panels or the genertor, the inverter, and the batterys. You have wear and tear on panels or the generator. Panels can be damaged and so can wind power generators. You have constant maintenance on batterys and inverters and generators. The pay back isn't going to be there for a long long time. The power companies sure they have to purchase the energy that is excess but they don't pay the rate your paying or the rate it actually cost them to produce the power you pay for they pay far less and make money on your investment. Mary, you seem to be proud of being an electronics tech and its a decent job but nothing special I am one also and I know that with all that knowledge we have its still going to cost us for a cup of coffee. To be blunt its child's play to wire up a elementry little solar charging system but you still have to pay an electricion when it comes to hooking to the grid and the same goes with wind power.

All maintenance is warrantied - the installing company fixes whatever is broke, does PM's, no expense.

[woodbutcher]

Re:Solar water heating.When my Father built the house that I grew up in back in 1949,he had a solar heater installed.Worked a treat.As far as I know,it is still going strong.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[MaryB]

My dad was a state electrical inspector for a couple counties north of me. So when the inspector for my county came out he said I know your dad and I know he beat it into you how to wire right and handed me a sticker. I grew up wiring houses, doing plumbing, construction, drywall, finish work... my parents flipped 2 old houses a year and with 5 kids we were cheap labor(they did pay us minimum wage when a house sold). I have also rebuilt car and truck engines and transmissions... kind of done a lot of everything!

I guess maybe you can get a inspector to sign off on it if you live in the sticks. Where I live you first have to take a test and pass that before you can wire and once you do that you are very limited as to what you can do and then of course there are the fees involved the test fees and the inspection fees. It was all designed to make it so the electricians in the area were the only ones doing the work. Another stick in my side is that we can no longer change a simple gas water heater. Got to show a contractors licence first in order to even purchase a gas water heater and then there are the fees, the building permit and inspection fees. I'm just amazed that they would allow you to wire your system after all an electronics degree doesn't mean much to most people.

[MaryB]

Winter about $50, summer about $75 with 2 window AC units running. I produce almost exactly half what I use, it bounces up and down with weather of course.

so if I'm not being to nosey whats your electric bill on average every month for the power your system doesn't supply? How much does your solar system actually save you a month on average?

[MaryB]

These are not a typical battery, they are built for industrial use and careful watering, never discharge below 50% they do last a very long time! http://www.rollsbattery.com/renewable_energy/ they are also one of the most expensive batteries made... and my battery temp runs around 70 degrees year round so lifespan is extended

I simply don't buy the idea of 20 year old batterys. Looks good on paper but in the real world figure about 50% of that depending on their use/abuse. Temp has a lot to do with battery life also. Ideal yearly temps will yeald longer life but zero, sub zero will cut life considerably. Seven year pay back? Please do print itemized info to confirm payback figures.