First cartridge, how'd I do? (45-70 gvt)

thecrazedorganist · 11-06-2009, 07:41 PM

First off, I'm really sorry about the picture. No batteries in the house for the real camera at the moment oddly enough, so cell phone it was

I've been lurking here for some time and decided to jump into reloading. Before ordering the holy black itself, I've decided to use up the last of my Blackhorn 209. Everything seems to be compressed pretty well. Can't hear powder jiggling about if I shake the cartridge.

Here's the skinny: Starline nickel plated brass
Magtech large rifle primer (all I could get here in Los Angeles)
65grains by volume of BH209
.060 vegetable fiber wad
405 grain lasercast bullet
light coating of thompson-center bore butter
2.512" Length

Cartridge is shown next to a factory cartridge. My main question is about crimping. I don't appear to have overcrimped, but would it be a safety issue if I did? I had to adjust the die a bit further past the Lee directions in order to be able to see the crimp. Also, when I seated the bullet a ring of lead managed to come off. Should I be worried about this round?

Thanks for the input!

August · 11-06-2009, 08:03 PM

How you crimp depends on the kind of rifle you're going to be shooting these in. If you have a single shot rifle, then no crimp -- other than to straighten out the bell -- needs to be applied. If you're shooting in a lever gun, then a roll crimp into a crimp groove is required.

You will probably find the laser cast bullets to be harder than ones you might make yourself. Therefore, accuracy might be less than optimal and you may experience leading.

Almost certainly, more and different lubrication will be required when you start using real black powder.

So, what kind of gun you gonna shoot these in? What bullets are you considering using when you switch over to Holy Black?

I am a strong believer in gentle ignition for black powder rounds. I use pistol primers in my 45-70 loads and my chronograph tells me that's the correct choice.

The .060 Walter's wad is my mainstay and I'm very happy with it. I use it to compress the powder. (b.t.w., you'll need a powder compression die when you switch over to Holy Black).

Looks like you've got a good start!!!! Don't be surprised if leading and/or keyholing attend your results with the laser cast bullets, however.

stubshaft · 11-06-2009, 08:48 PM

Looks like a 45/70 to me!

The real test is when you drop the hammer on it. But it looks good.

Good luck!

Don McDowell · 11-06-2009, 09:25 PM

DO NOT FIRE THAT ROUND!!!!!!!

Maximum load of that **** with a 405 gr bullet is 38 grs, and according the the blackthorn data I have that load is not recommended for trapdoors.
You're fiddlin around in some dangerous territory.

thecrazedorganist · 11-07-2009, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don McDowell

DO NOT FIRE THAT ROUND!!!!!!!

Maximum load of that **** with a 405 gr bullet is 38 grs, and according the the blackthorn data I have that load is not recommended for trapdoors.
You're fiddlin around in some dangerous territory.

Thank you for bringing up that observation. The loading table is grains by weight. But since BH209 is considered a volumetric equivalent of BP I figured it was safe to simply load the cartridge by volume. This is exactly why I posted here! Have I made an error in judgment? Definitely don't want to earn myself a Darwin award.

The gun these cartridges are for is a brand new Marlin 1895.

dubber123 · 11-07-2009, 03:35 AM

What does 65 grains by volume weigh on a scale? Out of curiosity. Also, the shaved lead ring is likely from not having a sufficient bell on the case mouth when seating. The ring of lead you saw is a good thing to avoid. You either should readjust your dies to apply more bell, (if they are capable of belling, some aren't), or get a seperate bell/expander die. Good luck.

cajun shooter · 11-07-2009, 05:18 AM

I hope that Don stopped you in time! You sir need to do a lot more research and reading before loading anymore rounds. That is meant to be constructive criticism. This load by volume thing that started with the play like powders has confused a lot of people. If you do any research into the loading of BP in the early days you will find that all factory loads were by grain weight. There was no such thing as load by volume. Your 209 should be loaded by that also to keep you from having a very short loading career. Reloading is a lot of fun and is another hobby its self but you have to follow certain guide lines. I hope you take time to learn and enjoy. You will find some very smart people on this forum with hundreds of years of experience that will help if you help yourself. Later David

SharpsShooter · 11-07-2009, 06:39 AM

This is exactly why black powder substitutes and their ilk annoy me. I do understand that it is what you have to use, but treating it like black powder will get you hurt. WEIGH each charge after you determine the proper SAFE load by consulting a manual. Black Powder cartridge shooting is a fantastic thing, but you must still have a care about safety.

Blackhorn Load Data

The only reason we are riding your @ss is to keep you in the vertical.

SS

Don McDowell · 11-07-2009, 06:49 AM

I'ld strongly urge you to follow the GRAINS weight recommendations listed in the Blackthorn load data. If you don't have a scale GET ONE.

thecrazedorganist · 11-07-2009, 09:36 AM

Still here! Preparations for an upcoming concert have kept me from heading out the door to the range like I usually do on Saturday mornings... talk about not-so-small favors.

What's the best way to defuse this bomb? Pull the bullet and recycle the powder? Or will I have to worry about building up a static charge that would make it really difficult to play my concert tomorrow?

martinibelgian · 11-07-2009, 09:40 AM

1st check how much your 65gr by volume actually weighs - there is one question though I find hard to answer: if you don't have BP, how do you determine your 65grs by volume? or are you just working with the graduations on a measure?

thecrazedorganist · 11-07-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinibelgian

1st check how much your 65gr by volume actually weighs - there is one question though I find hard to answer: if you don't have BP, how do you determine your 65grs by volume? or are you just working with the graduations on a measure?

Correct. I've got a TC powder measure from my muzzleloading days.

montana_charlie · 11-07-2009, 09:51 AM

The load data for 45/70 and that powder is here...
http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pd...tridgedata.pdf

One column specifies the amount of powder to be used. The heading for that column is "Charge Weight In Grains".

That leaves no room for 'I figured' or 'Seems to me'. It says weigh the charge and use THAT amount.

But, elsewhere on their website it does say, "At volume equivalents, Blackhorn 209 is ballistically superior to other muzzleloading propellants."

So, if you arrived at "65 grains" by using a handheld measure, your load may well be a safe one. If it is a scale weighed 65 grains, it is too much powder.

Pour your TC measure full and weigh that charge. If it is between 30 and 38 grains ON A SCALE, the loaded cartridge is probably safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecrazedorganist

What's the best way to defuse this bomb?

Remove the die from your reloading press.
Place the case in the shellholder and run it up through the hole.
Grip the bullet with a pair of pliers and brace the pliers on the top of the press.
Pull the cartridge down with the ram, separating the case and bullet.

CM

dubber123 · 11-07-2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montana_charlie

The load data for 45/70 and that powder is here...
http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pd...tridgedata.pdf

One column specifies the amount of powder to be used. The heading for that column is "Charge Weight In Grains".

That leaves no room for 'I figured' or 'Seems to me'. It says weigh the charge and use THAT amount.

But, elsewhere on their website it does say, "At volume equivalents, Blackhorn 209 is ballistically superior to other muzzleloading propellants."

So, if you arrived at "65 grains" by using a handheld measure, your load may well be a safe one. If it is a scale weighed 65 grains, it is too much powder.

Pour your TC measure full and weigh that charge. If it is between 30 and 38 grains ON A SCALE, the loaded cartridge is probably safe.

Remove the die from your reloading press.
Place the case in the shellholder and run it up through the hole.
Grip the bullet with a pair of pliers and brace the pliers on the top of the press.
Pull the cartridge down with the ram, separating the case and bullet.

CM

This is the most reasonable response yet. I agree he needed more information before starting, but it doesn't necessarily mean he is going to blow himself up with this load. I see the max listed for a 405 is at 101%, assuming this means slightly compressed. Was your 65 grain load compressed at all?

Also keep in mind this isn't a Trapdoor, and he has a substantial strength advantage with his Marlin. He doesn't have to stop at Trapdoor loads.

1874Sharps · 11-07-2009, 04:51 PM

CrazedOrganPlayer,

Let me first say that I have not used BLACKHORN 209, being the black powder purist that I am, but I can certainly read the BLACKHORN 209 website and learn about it. First off, the density of this new smokeless BP substitute is much less than BP. It is loaded volume for volume (BLACKHORN to BP), but the weight of the BLACKHORN (henceforth called BH) will be substantially less than a BP load. A BP cartridge cannot be overloaded by volume or weight. That is, you cannot over charge your 45-70 case with BP and therefore, by extension, you will not be able to over charge it with BH. The load data recommends using an over powder wad and says NOT to use it in a trapdoor Springfield. It says nothing about compressing the load, so I would not advise doing so until you actually talk to the manufacturer. Go to blackhorn209.com if you would like to see the data for yourself.

One word on the advice you will find in this forum: Most of it is good information offered by fellow shooters who are friendly, polite and want to see you succeed in your endeavors. There are others who are curmudgeons and will use the opportunity to respond to an inexperienced reloader in a most rude, insulting and critical manner. I will leave it to your judgement to sort out the friends from the curmudgeons.

John Boy · 11-07-2009, 06:59 PM

Reloaders don't realize that Blackhorn 209 is a Nitro based powder!
Here's an analytical article that was in a recent issue of the ASSRA magazine ...
Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

Don McDowell · 11-07-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecrazedorganist

Still here! Preparations for an upcoming concert have kept me from heading out the door to the range like I usually do on Saturday mornings... talk about not-so-small favors.

What's the best way to defuse this bomb? Pull the bullet and recycle the powder? Or will I have to worry about building up a static charge that would make it really difficult to play my concert tomorrow?

Before you pull that bullet etc. You need to check your charge weight on a scale. If that comes up 38 grs or less you'll likely be alright in that Marlin. Not all bp powder measures are created equal, so without a grain weight scale check, to varify the volume you're tredding into potentially hazardous territory.
Now heres a bit to help you get things figured out a bit. Ignited powder charges in a muzzleloader will show considerably lower pressures due to the venting of part of the charge thru the nipple/touchhole, also there will be some blowby on the bullet as its at best a bore diameter fit, and will not bump up to completely seal the bore right away.
With a cartridge gun you won't get the venting of the excess gases , and that's why in the cartridge data provided by blackthorn they give actual grains weight , in lieu of the so called volume measure for the muzzleloaders. Also if you notice in the data they say that 38 gr load is 101% load density. What that means is the charge takes up 101% of the available room between the base of the bullet and the web of the case. How much powder this actually is can vary greatly between brands of cases.
It looks to me like this stuff when put into cartridges runs at some fairly stiff pressures, and I suspect any compression can cause some pressure spikes that may or may not be friendly to your rifle.

dubber123 · 11-07-2009, 08:21 PM

Some compression at least appear to be acceptable, as they list some loads with a 119% load density. The max load listed with his boolit weight is also a little under 1/2 the max pressure of the Marlin. I would say if he has only minor compression, he is likely just fine in his lever gun.

Don McDowell · 11-07-2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubber123

Some compression at least appear to be acceptable, as they list some loads with a 119% load density. The max load listed with his boolit weight is also a little under 1/2 the max pressure of the Marlin. I would say if he has only minor compression, he is likely just fine in his lever gun.

Those load density amounts you're speaking of is for the most part in handgun cartridges, at pressures less than half what they're showing for the 45-70.
If they thought that 119% load density in the 45-70 was alright , they most likely would of listed it. But they didn't so we should assume that anything over the 38 grs charge weight caused excessive pressure. We also don't know what cases the data from Blackthorn was drawn from, and as we all know remington cases are a bit shorter than winchester and as such have less load density.
Besides there's always that stupid little safety warning about reloading that's been around for the last 50 years that I know of, load developement should start at the listed starting charge and work up towards the maximum listed charge......

NickSS · 11-07-2009, 10:53 PM

I have never used Black thorn powder but I did read the loading tables. The load is listed at 21,000 psi This is considered by some people to be more than a trapdoor can handle. However a Marlin 95 can handle pressures of nearly 40,000 psi and not come apart. My guess from having friends who use the various BP substitutes is that a full case of Blackthorn in 45-70 will not over stress a Marlin. The only thing I do not know is if compression changes the burning rate of the powder. To be safe (and I always advocate safety first) I would first see what 65 gr by volume weighs. If it is close to 38 gr by weight I would not worry about the load and shoot it to see how it does. If it is much over like Greater than 10% I would pull the bullet and try again.

When I develop Black powder loads I do it by determining what amount of compression of the powder works best in my rifle first then I weigh the charge so next time I load a batch of ammo I can set my powder thrower up to duplicate the load. When loading I place the powder in the case through a 30 inch drop tube, set a card wad over it with a short piece of dowel and measure the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case. Then I compress the charge with my preset compression die. This lets me know how much I compressed the charge. Once I have fired enough rounds (minimum of 10) to know how the load shoots, I weigh the charge so I can preset my measure in the future.

11-06-2009, 07:41 PM	#1
thecrazedorganist Boolit Mold Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 6	First cartridge, how'd I do? (45-70 gvt) First off, I'm really sorry about the picture. No batteries in the house for the real camera at the moment oddly enough, so cell phone it was I've been lurking here for some time and decided to jump into reloading. Before ordering the holy black itself, I've decided to use up the last of my Blackhorn 209. Everything seems to be compressed pretty well. Can't hear powder jiggling about if I shake the cartridge. Here's the skinny: Starline nickel plated brass Magtech large rifle primer (all I could get here in Los Angeles) 65grains by volume of BH209 .060 vegetable fiber wad 405 grain lasercast bullet light coating of thompson-center bore butter 2.512" Length Cartridge is shown next to a factory cartridge. My main question is about crimping. I don't appear to have overcrimped, but would it be a safety issue if I did? I had to adjust the die a bit further past the Lee directions in order to be able to see the crimp. Also, when I seated the bullet a ring of lead managed to come off. Should I be worried about this round? Thanks for the input! Last edited by thecrazedorganist; 11-06-2009 at 07:50 PM.

11-06-2009, 08:03 PM	#2
August Boolit Master Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 473	How you crimp depends on the kind of rifle you're going to be shooting these in. If you have a single shot rifle, then no crimp -- other than to straighten out the bell -- needs to be applied. If you're shooting in a lever gun, then a roll crimp into a crimp groove is required. You will probably find the laser cast bullets to be harder than ones you might make yourself. Therefore, accuracy might be less than optimal and you may experience leading. Almost certainly, more and different lubrication will be required when you start using real black powder. So, what kind of gun you gonna shoot these in? What bullets are you considering using when you switch over to Holy Black? I am a strong believer in gentle ignition for black powder rounds. I use pistol primers in my 45-70 loads and my chronograph tells me that's the correct choice. The .060 Walter's wad is my mainstay and I'm very happy with it. I use it to compress the powder. (b.t.w., you'll need a powder compression die when you switch over to Holy Black). Looks like you've got a good start!!!! Don't be surprised if leading and/or keyholing attend your results with the laser cast bullets, however. __________________ That I could be wrong is an eventuality that has not escaped me. I just painted the pictures as I saw them. I do not know how to do anything else. (Saint Elmer, 1955)

11-06-2009, 08:48 PM	#3
stubshaft Boolit Master Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Southernmost State of the Union Posts: 941	Looks like a 45/70 to me! The real test is when you drop the hammer on it. But it looks good. Good luck! __________________ If your going to put a hole in something...MAKE IT A BIG ONE.

11-06-2009, 09:25 PM	#4
Don McDowell Boolit Master Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hell Gap Wy Posts: 659	DO NOT FIRE THAT ROUND!!!!!!! Maximum load of that **** with a 405 gr bullet is 38 grs, and according the the blackthorn data I have that load is not recommended for trapdoors. You're fiddlin around in some dangerous territory. __________________ GUSA #6

11-07-2009, 05:18 AM	#7
cajun shooter Black Powder 100% Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Livingston, La. 20 miles east of Baton Rouge, La. Posts: 1,300	I hope that Don stopped you in time! You sir need to do a lot more research and reading before loading anymore rounds. That is meant to be constructive criticism. This load by volume thing that started with the play like powders has confused a lot of people. If you do any research into the loading of BP in the early days you will find that all factory loads were by grain weight. There was no such thing as load by volume. Your 209 should be loaded by that also to keep you from having a very short loading career. Reloading is a lot of fun and is another hobby its self but you have to follow certain guide lines. I hope you take time to learn and enjoy. You will find some very smart people on this forum with hundreds of years of experience that will help if you help yourself. Later David __________________ Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81805; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Border Vigliante; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat

11-07-2009, 03:35 AM	#6
dubber123 Boolit Master Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The deep south,... of Vermont! Posts: 2,165	What does 65 grains by volume weigh on a scale? Out of curiosity. Also, the shaved lead ring is likely from not having a sufficient bell on the case mouth when seating. The ring of lead you saw is a good thing to avoid. You either should readjust your dies to apply more bell, (if they are capable of belling, some aren't), or get a seperate bell/expander die. Good luck.

11-07-2009, 06:39 AM	#8
SharpsShooter Boolit Master Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Rainelle, West Virginia Posts: 2,601	This is exactly why black powder substitutes and their ilk annoy me. I do understand that it is what you have to use, but treating it like black powder will get you hurt. WEIGH each charge after you determine the proper SAFE load by consulting a manual. Black Powder cartridge shooting is a fantastic thing, but you must still have a care about safety. Blackhorn Load Data The only reason we are riding your @ss is to keep you in the vertical. SS __________________ Whatdaya mean...There's other calibers besides 45-70??? NRA Life Member Since 1981 "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." —Samuel Adams The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

11-07-2009, 06:49 AM	#9
Don McDowell Boolit Master Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hell Gap Wy Posts: 659	I'ld strongly urge you to follow the GRAINS weight recommendations listed in the Blackthorn load data. If you don't have a scale GET ONE. __________________ GUSA #6

11-07-2009, 09:36 AM	#10
thecrazedorganist Boolit Mold Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 6	Still here! Preparations for an upcoming concert have kept me from heading out the door to the range like I usually do on Saturday mornings... talk about not-so-small favors. What's the best way to defuse this bomb? Pull the bullet and recycle the powder? Or will I have to worry about building up a static charge that would make it really difficult to play my concert tomorrow?

11-07-2009, 09:40 AM	#11
martinibelgian Boolit Master Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 199	1st check how much your 65gr by volume actually weighs - there is one question though I find hard to answer: if you don't have BP, how do you determine your 65grs by volume? or are you just working with the graduations on a measure?

11-07-2009, 04:51 PM	#15
1874Sharps Boolit Master Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Posts: 236	CrazedOrganPlayer, Let me first say that I have not used BLACKHORN 209, being the black powder purist that I am, but I can certainly read the BLACKHORN 209 website and learn about it. First off, the density of this new smokeless BP substitute is much less than BP. It is loaded volume for volume (BLACKHORN to BP), but the weight of the BLACKHORN (henceforth called BH) will be substantially less than a BP load. A BP cartridge cannot be overloaded by volume or weight. That is, you cannot over charge your 45-70 case with BP and therefore, by extension, you will not be able to over charge it with BH. The load data recommends using an over powder wad and says NOT to use it in a trapdoor Springfield. It says nothing about compressing the load, so I would not advise doing so until you actually talk to the manufacturer. Go to blackhorn209.com if you would like to see the data for yourself. One word on the advice you will find in this forum: Most of it is good information offered by fellow shooters who are friendly, polite and want to see you succeed in your endeavors. There are others who are curmudgeons and will use the opportunity to respond to an inexperienced reloader in a most rude, insulting and critical manner. I will leave it to your judgement to sort out the friends from the curmudgeons.

11-07-2009, 06:59 PM	#16
John Boy Boolit Master Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: South Jersey Posts: 843	Reloaders don't realize that Blackhorn 209 is a Nitro based powder! Here's an analytical article that was in a recent issue of the ASSRA magazine ... Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed! __________________ Regards John

11-07-2009, 08:21 PM	#18
dubber123 Boolit Master Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The deep south,... of Vermont! Posts: 2,165	Some compression at least appear to be acceptable, as they list some loads with a 119% load density. The max load listed with his boolit weight is also a little under 1/2 the max pressure of the Marlin. I would say if he has only minor compression, he is likely just fine in his lever gun.

11-07-2009, 10:53 PM	#20
NickSS Boolit Master Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 931	I have never used Black thorn powder but I did read the loading tables. The load is listed at 21,000 psi This is considered by some people to be more than a trapdoor can handle. However a Marlin 95 can handle pressures of nearly 40,000 psi and not come apart. My guess from having friends who use the various BP substitutes is that a full case of Blackthorn in 45-70 will not over stress a Marlin. The only thing I do not know is if compression changes the burning rate of the powder. To be safe (and I always advocate safety first) I would first see what 65 gr by volume weighs. If it is close to 38 gr by weight I would not worry about the load and shoot it to see how it does. If it is much over like Greater than 10% I would pull the bullet and try again. When I develop Black powder loads I do it by determining what amount of compression of the powder works best in my rifle first then I weigh the charge so next time I load a batch of ammo I can set my powder thrower up to duplicate the load. When loading I place the powder in the case through a 30 inch drop tube, set a card wad over it with a short piece of dowel and measure the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case. Then I compress the charge with my preset compression die. This lets me know how much I compressed the charge. Once I have fired enough rounds (minimum of 10) to know how the load shoots, I weigh the charge so I can preset my measure in the future.