"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Marlin Junky]

What, precisely, do you mean by "more than one way to skin a cat"?

Gear

I dunno...

I'm gonna guess you mean soften beeswax by "take the starch out" but was wondering if there's some revealing technicality hidden in there. Almost everything we add to beeswax in the hopes of creating a successful boolit will "soften" it.

I still have no clue what you meant above by feathery... where is my Southern Texan English dictionary.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Not regional, but technical "dialect". Feathery to me means that a small blob of the lube will easily smear out to practically nothing (maybe faint oil film, maybe just a dry, cellophane-like feather edge) between thumb and forefinger. Glide means how much friction is felt during the smear, some lubes fell almost gritty between the fingers, some feel like warm butter. Vaseline plasticizes the beeswax, meaning makes it malleable and soft compared to its crystalline and brittle nature when pure. Hard or soft means how much force it takes to knead the lube.

Gear

[btroj]

Heck, I don't speak Texan and I understand feather and glide.

Ok Gear, does the slack wax replace the Vaseline or does it just help replace the "good stuff" they now remove from the Vaseline? By slack wax I also am assuming that you are using toilet bowl rings.

If using the toilet bowl rings is polybutene really needed? Seems they are awfully sticky on their own.

[Marlin Junky]

Vaseline plasticizes the beeswax, meaning makes it malleable and soft compared to its crystalline and brittle nature when pure.
Gear

So that's a good thing, no? I would think mineral oil would act similarly.

So have you guy's determined what percentage (or percent range) of beeswax the "Extreme Lube" should contain?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Heck, I don't speak Texan and I understand feather and glide.

I didn't have a problem with glide but Gear cleared up the feather ambiguities just fine.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Heck, I don't speak Texan and I understand feather and glide.

Ok Gear, does the slack wax replace the Vaseline or does it just help replace the "good stuff" they now remove from the Vaseline? I'm suggesting that it does the latter. By slack wax I also am assuming that you are using toilet bowl rings. Affirmative. I don't know what's really in them but I read on the internet somewhere that they're basically un-refined waste wax about one grade below petrolatum in the fraction tower. If it was hydrotreated and the final oils removed, it would probably be a mixture of hard paraffin and microcrystalline waxes.

If using the toilet bowl rings is polybutene really needed? Seems they are awfully sticky on their own. That's the problem I ran into right away when adding the bowl wax to lube that already has polybutene added, plus had two-stroke oil in it. Had to add carnauba to get the stuff to jettison, and groups from Saturday before last with same lube less carnauba showed it. Bowl wax is SUPER sticky and the polybutene makes it practically a contact adhesive.

My reservations about bowl wax are batch/brand consistency (there is none), and possible calcium content. Haven't used it enough to see if it builds up like Alox 2138F does.

Gear

[btroj]

Having replaced a few toilets over the years I can say I don't know of many things stickier than bowl rings.

Wonder how Joes soap lube would do with wax ring in place of Vaseline? Would be a bit stickier. Mine turned out kinda dry but it does stick to the bullets.

[runfiverun]

i'm maybe thinking using soft candle soy wax might be a bit better here than the slack wax might be.
it could be used in place of vaseline as the b-wax modifyer too.
it is what i have traditionally used,and for some reason have kinda gotten away from it lately except for the moly lube and the od lube.
a 30-40% mix to b-wax works well.

[geargnasher]

Dadgummit, THAT'S what I was forgetting about, soy wax. I bet that's the stuff to use for a modified Felix lube, but the problem then becomes actually making the lube if you're leaning toward a higher percentage of soap, like 1/3. If the wax and oil can't take the heat of melting sodium stearate, the lube can't be made. There is just barely enough Vaseline to grease the soap in Joe's formula when using beeswax and melting it in later at cooler temps. Take that out, and all you have is a shade under two percent Castor oil by volume (of the whole shebang, including wax) to melt with the soap, and that won't come close. You need at least an equal amount of oil/wax/whatever as soap to make the grease part.

Now, if we use a petroleum wax, like Yaley shaping wax, or a microcrystalline wax, it can take 500F practically all day and we can add the soy component later.

I don't think cetyl esters can take the melt point of the sodium stearate either, so we're still looking at something like Vaseline. Bowl wax can take the heat of melting the soap, so that's still on the "menu" of possibilities. It might do to bring up again that 50/50 Ivory and Fluidmaster bowl wax makes a really promising looking lube, I just never have actually tried it in a gun. If about 2-3% ester two-cycle oil and maybe some soy and carnauba wax was added, it might be even better.......hmmmmmm.....here we go again, dancing around the same concept. Either modified Felix or Joe's lube, I tell ya. Joe's can take just about the worst heat anyone can expect ammunition to ever have to bear, that's why I keep leaning so hard toward the soap lubes. That and that lucky son-of-a-gun really hit on something good with his concoction.

Gear

[geargnasher]

How's this sound:

1 part Yaley shaping wax
1 part Ivory soap
1 part Fluidmaster bowl wax with about 10% synthetic ATF added (Joe adds heavy laxative-grade mineral oil to his petrolatum to thin it a bit)
2% Ester-based two-cycle oil (solvent removed) OR straight, laxative-grade castor bean oil.

That ought to be close about as close to Joe's stuff as we can get, having examined and tested the wax he uses.

Felix lube could be made per the original proportions but substitute ester two-cycle oil for the mineral and castor, and substitute cetyl esters and maybe a small percentage of soy wax for the lanolin. Lanolin comes in at 5% in his mix, and cetyl esters is recommended to be used at up to seven percent in cosmetic formulas, I suspect it does about the same thing in the same proportions.

Just to put it in perspective, Felix lube is about:
15 parts beeswax
1 part castor
2 parts mineral oil
1 part Ivory soap
1 part lanolin

That makes 20 parts, so each part is 5% if you don't add carnauba wax. If you get much higher than that on the oils, purge flyers commence except in cold weather where I've found you can add about 5-10% synthetic ATF to help the cold barrel syndrome. One could also view it as 20% sodium grease (at 25% thickener content), 75% beeswax, and 5% EP friction modifier (lanolin).

At risk of sounding like a broken record, for posterity Starmetal's soap lube is equal parts by liquid volume Ivory soap and "beeswax" (mostly if not entirely a petroleum wax blend very close in properties to beeswax except it can take a lot more heat), somewhere around an equal part yellow Vaseline (to taste, this component is varied to get the desired softness), and about 2% castor bean oil. But I tell ya, it's a lot more complicated to make right than it sounds, between getting the right components and learning how to cook it.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i tried to just melt some very dry ivory with a torch.
it seemed to want to melt, it turned liquidy then burned and acted like melted sugar.
i'm thinking that has to be where joe was having his burnt puck issue.

i am thinking of just modifying the simple lube with soy wax instead of the vaseline.
then using the 2 stroke and atf same as before.
this would give the lube a little more body and hopefully keep up the feathering/glide without so much tacky.


i have thought about adding ivory by just melting it right into the b-wax at about 200-f
i don't know what all it would bring to the table.
however if it softened the b-wax on it's own the parrafinics might could not be needed.
the soy could be used to modify this. [the soy wax has a slightly higher melt point than vaseline too]
and just a simple poe [or combination] could be the base lube.

[runfiverun]

one other thought too.
mineral oil will take a lot of heat.
that could be used to poof off the water and glycerin from the ivory.
once that was saturated it would make a pretty good base for both getting the ivory in the lube and also to cut the polybutene down to an appropriate mix.
i would bet that a 25% mix of the saturated mineral oil would take 5% 2 stroke oil easily enough [poly butene or not].
that would give a mix ratio of 3-1 b-wax to oils.
and none of them would really be overly temp sensitive.

[Eutectic]

The Continental Divide is having a heat wave today.... So I cast boolits, as I cast outside. It was 18F. It takes a lot of boolits for this testing! A few more of you need to jump in... Below zero back in a few days they say and we'll see how two versions of "Polybutene Felix" like some heavy-duty "frost on the pumpkin"!

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Lamar, if you melt soap into the melted beeswax, the drops of soap will freeze again as soon as they hit it without going into solution. BTDT.

Gear

PS the Brown truck just delivered my .308 barrel, good thing I checked, the driver dumped it in the driveway without a plastic bag in the middle of a driving thunderstorm. The box was soaked, but thank goodness it was packed well and is in perfect condition. Guess I'll be in the gun room for the rest of the evening......you guys hold down the fort while I check the stats on my new boolit lube test platform.

[runfiverun]

i thought it would.
i think i am gonna try the mineral oil saturation and see what happens.

eutetic that made me smile.
everytime it warms up here it snows then blows off even colder.

[leftiye]

Hi, My wife and I are getting a Nu-Wave induction heating countertop. It heats by electronic ( I suspect radio wave) action on magntic steels or iron placed on top of it. The top of the hotplate remains cool. It will heat to any temp in ten degree increments from 110 to 576 degrees. The heat is even over the whole heating surface, no trivet needed. Because of this even heat and because it controls temp precisely and doesn't fluctuate, it will do what a double boiler will do making double boilers unnecessary. Might even cook ivory soap into oils and greases without burning them! The wife won't care if I use it because you can cover it with butcher paper and not get anything on it (maybe not at 450, the pot would be hot enough to char paper, maybe use aluminum foil, or maybe just leave a hole under the pot.). We's getting there folks!

P.S. Don't buy from the folks that advertise these on TV and the net. They try to back door (inclined plane that circles shaft) you with about 100 dollars in shipping. Cheaper (though it doesn't sound like it) on eVil bAY. 50-100 dollars and up some more. The package that was supposed to be 160 dollars ended up more like $280.

[geargnasher]

You'd better have one helluva vent-a-hood, that is ducted OUTSIDE.

Gear

[leftiye]

You'd better have one helluva vent-a-hood, that is ducted OUTSIDE. Gear

It's portable, weighs about 7 or 8 lbs..

[Eutectic]

Lube testing results from the bitter COLD.

While I have more below zero work to do I thought I'd bring you up to my current results.

Going into this 'cold side', I chose lubes that performed the best for me in summer. (one was from Gear's results) All did well at least to 80F, and most were shot at higher temps. While they could faulter in Texas summer heat due to vicosity and/or melt points I believe they could take 100F. My criteria leans more to a range of -15F to 85-90F...Three are my formulation and one was sent to me by Gear and is referred to as "Joe's Lube".

The four lubes are:
1. My BAC formula which is 48% Beeswax, 48% Alox 350, and 4% Carnauba wax flakes.
2. Polybutene Felix - 23% Stihl chain bar oil Iso 220, 13% Castor oil, 4.3% grated Ivory (very dry) and 59.7% Beeswax.
3. Polybutene Felix 1.5% hBN - 20% Stihl oil, 12.5% Castor Oil, 4.3% grated Ivory, 61.7% Beeswax, and 1.5% hexagonal boron nitride.
4. "Joe's lube" Still testing and researching exact formulations of both waxs and oils (Vasoline) Could be we need to know this......

All percentages are weight.

My results listed are not in chronological order but instead are in temperature order.

14F degrees - Lubes #1, 2, and 3 performed minute of angle accuracy in three 'test mules'. Lube #1 cold started the least in all three guns. No cold start movement with no powder charge reduction in the Rem 600 .35 Rem with lube #1. Slightly left 3/4" at 70 yards in the .35 Rem with both lube #2 and #3. The Savage .32-20 had no cold start movement with lubes #1, #2, or #3.... BUT the first shot had a 4.5% powder reduction. Groups 3/4" or better at 70 yards. Lube number 4 not tried.

9F degrees - Lubes #1 and #3 were virtually identical to the 14F results. Lube #2 FAILED with groups opening about 2 1/2 times the size of 14F groups. Lube #4 not tried.

-4F below degrees - Lubes #1 and #3 continued virtually identical with above results! Cold starts held constant. Lube number 4 was tried in the .32-20. It had a slight high left first cold start shot. Then proceeded to put them in one hole!

-10F below degrees - Only lube #3 was tried in two mules, the .35 Rem and the .32-20. I thought this lube was going to win.... It did shoot minute of angle too, after the first shot. But cold starts were 'squirrely'.... The .35 went 1 1/4" left and the .32-20 shot the cold start 1 3/8" right. Elevation was good? No powder reduction in the .35, 4.5% reduction in the .32-20. Even with the .32-20 reduction the case showed slightly higher pressure on the micrometer. It seems in this bitter cold the first shot really works to 'plow out the 'C.O.R.E.' Probably the Castor Oil content if I was to guess. ALSO, both Hercules and now Alliant caution about double base powders in extreme cold as creating higher pressures in certain applications. I don't think I saw this but I think I saw the time pressure curve messed with with C.O.R.E. so thick, resistent, or whatever it was? The powder was more sensitive IMO.

The next couple mornings promise -8 to -10. I'm going to try both lubes #1 and #4 while I think on a Castor Oil replacement. I am almost sure I'm going to bring back 'EsterBee350' with 2% Carnauba which did awful well in the warm weather. Like my BAC it liked cleaned every 30 to 50 rounds though.

Sorry these results are slow and seem so light in volume. But this is tough testing! In my younger days I called coyotes down to -20 below at times. I was good setting for maybe a half hour at a location even in arctic clothes before I went to the truck and changed spots. I warmed up and the gun and ammo warmed up! Saturating both guns and ammo for 2 -3 hours in these minus temps has me shooting a gun I have never experienced before! I have never shot a gun or shells as cold as I did this morning!

I end with a picture of my Remington Model 600.... The ice on the stock is from my breath. The bare spot in the middle of the ice was where I pulled the frozen gun away from my cheek! Look at the ice on the bolt!

My thoughts are that a minus -15F fully saturated gun and ammo test is all we'll ever need even for Antarctica. (unless your guns and ammo stay outside) Why? Because we can't stay out longer with gun and ammo in anything colder to probably equal a 2 to 3 hour fully saturated gun and ammo at -15F without finding a warm spot or dying one!

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

excellent work.
-20 is where i don't go out shooting anymore.
it's a good test for gun oils and such too though.
i wish you'd let my old job know about the -15 thing they expected us to keep water flowing to much lower temps than that.
however we couldn't hit iron below -20 because of the chance of the iron stress fracturing and breaking.
we were told to stay out and rebuild pumps and such in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night in -40 or colder with 20 mph winds.