Where to get 12 Ga. crimp starter???

[jsizemore]

Jim, I've found that Winchester hulls are slightly shorter then Remington. That might give you a little more room to get a better crimp. You can make a little more room by cutting back on your shot charge (if it's a slug, that ain't happening) or you can cut back on your powder. If your using a slug then you probably want to stick with the slower burning powders that take up more space, just cut back on the charge weight a little. An improved crimp will result in more consistent ignition and velocities. I don't mind a little swirl to my reloads cuz I know I'm not lossing shot and my crimps are dished like they should be. I haven't used your reloading setup, but on my MEC, I'd be adjusting the cam to get more crimp punch depth. The crimp starter will determine the length of the folded material for the crimp. Hope that makes sense.
If your loading buck or birdshot then I would make sure I have the crimp closed or slightly swirled. If it's a slug then it doesn't matter if you can see the tip of the slug. Might help to identify one at a glance. Good Luck

[scrapcan]

The collapse inward in one of Jim's previous posts would indicate he has too little of something. I would start with checking hte loaidng and components. Then setting the crimp starter deeper if possible, may not be with the lee loader and as suggested see if the final crimp punch , as mentioned, can go deeper.

I too like a small swirl. I use federal and remington hulls due to having ahd better luck with them than the multitude of different winchester cases. If I use winchester it is AA for target or heavy high brass for hunting.

[JIMinPHX]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I am using Win Universal hulls. They are what I could find for free just laying out in the desert. I am loading Lee 1oz slugs with pink wads & a low end charge of 18.5 grains of Green Dot for around 1,000fps.

After reading what you guys wrote, I am beginning to think that my component stack may be a bit too tall. I rigged something up last night so that I could crimp deeper. When I did, I got the rim at the top of the shell, but later it pushed back out again. This morning, the shells all looked like they did in my photo from the other day.

I am thinking that when the whole thing collapsed inwards, it was because the wad had collapsed. The strange thing is that now I am crimping deeper with a longer crimp plunger & it's not collapsing anymore. I guess that after the shell sat crimped for a little while, the folds got used to laying flat & didn't pop inward as easily anymore. ...that's just a guess.

At first, I had tried using a standard 12 Ga. Lee Loader with terrible results. I crushed every single crimp. I then made up my own version of a Lee Loader. That's the one in the picture. My version has a depth stop for both the crimp starter & the finish crimp die. I can control the crimp depths to be whatever I want them to be by adjusting the length of my stop tubes, but I need to figure out what depth is best. Since I don't know jack about what constitutes a good crimp, it's sort of a double learning process for me. One thing that I did miss was the taper at the top of the final crimp die. Mine is straight wall & I left about .015" of clearance on the diameter. My shells bell out a little at the top. That may be part of my problem. I'll try to tighten up the diameter on that tube when I get back into the shop. It would probably help if I knew what the dimensions on a shell were really supposed to be. I'm just going off of what I measured on a single factory shell that I had kicking around. At least that gave me somewhere to start.

Now, from what I'm reading above, it sounds like I can crimp the shells a little taller & leave a hole in the center of the crimp, if I want to with a slug load. Is that correct? If it is, then that may be my ticket out of this mess. I tried making up another roll crimp tool & that just didn't work out well at all. I made a mess of 4 or 5 more hulls before I put that one back up on the shelf again. I think that I'd rather stay with folds, at least for now.

I thank you all for the help you are giving me. Without it, I'd really be banging my head against a wall.

[woody1]

"Since I don't know jack about what constitutes a good crimp, it's sort of a double learning process for me. "

According to the 'spurts somewhere, crimp depth should be range from 1/16 - 1/10th inch, depending.... all else equal, deeper will give higher pressure..........

Jim, go to the MEC website and take a look at (download) one of their manuals or 2. Good photos/descriptions of the process, tools and results. I recommend the 650 because it's the one I just looked at and it has a three process crimp. Others may be as good.

http://www.mecreloaders.com/OwnerMan...nerManuals.asp

Regards, Woody

[jsizemore]

Jim, Modern wads act as a shock absorber between the gas seal and the shotcup. You don't want to compress the wad too much cuz you'll lose some of the recoil reduction and the memory of the plastic wad will undo your crimp, which you've already observed. It can also cause the gas seal to flair/expand and cause a bulge in the loaded round.
I've seated a wad with my MEC Grabber so the wad compression gage just did register compression, and then used a piece of PEX plastic water pipe with a depth mark on it to learn the feel for wad seating. All this to load buck and round ball with out having to shuffle hulls in and out of the reloader.
You'll have to play with crimp start length and crimp to create a little tension on the wad and the crimp dish so it is correct. If a little of the slug is exposed it shouldn't make a difference. Since your shooting a single projectile, a consistent crimp will help with consistent ignition and consistent velocity and accuracy.
If you need to, you can use a wad with a larger shotcup and some homemade under/overshot cards under the slug to make up the difference to get the right crimp. Hope this isn't too confusing. Good Luck

[JIMinPHX]

I've been trying not to go down as far with the crimp starter so that I would get a longer finished shell. It's not working for me. I think that the shell is just bending in the same place that it did when the factory first crimped it. I should probably try to use a slightly shorter wad. What would be the next shorter one compared to a WAA12SL?

[woody1]

Stickin' to the WAA wads, I'd try the WAA12 or the generic variety thereof. It's a pretty adaptable wad and if it's a hair too short you can stuff a filler in the shotcup as needed. I can prob'ly find a few to send you to try if you'd like.

Another thought.....I did this with some 20 ga. roundball loads. My MEC would ......... nope this won't work for you but might if the next wads you try are a little short. Anyway my MEC would shove the entire crimp portion into the mouth of the case the result being similar to a rolled crimp. Held the ball nicely also and made it easy to tell what you were shooting..
Regards, Woody

[Rrusse11]

Jim,
Not much adjustment with the Lee Loader, you can mess around with it, but I'd suggest a Mec, they've got good adjustments on crimping. The 600jr is adequate for low volume, a grabber with the collet resizer and semi-progressive is the way to go for volume. For a shorter wad go to the next higher capacity wad.
Ie, if you're using a wad for 1oz, go to 1 1/8oz.
For roll crimping small quantities grab one of these;
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm...Category_Code=
Cheap and effective, lol, I've got one around here somewhere, damned if I can find it but.
I've reloaded metallic for a number of years, but shotshell is a whole 'nother world!
Cheers,
R*2

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Numrich "e-gunparts.com" has the lee loader crimp starters 6 and 8 point on clearance 70c

Thanks
Nitro

[JIMinPHX]

Wow, $0.70 from http://www.gunpartscorp.com/, now there's a find.

Thanks.

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Here is the direct link :

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=6469

Thanks
Nitro

[DLCTEX]

nitro450exp: thanks for the heads up. Just ordered one ea. 6 & 8 crimp in 12 & 20 ga. plus the wad starters. $9.95 total with shipping.

[JIMinPHX]

Well, I did a little fooling around with my loading tools. I tightened up some tolerances & made my crimp dies adjustable. My 12Ga. slug shells are now coming out looking like the picture below. I'm pretty happy about that. I'd like to thank everyone for all the good information that I've received.

[Rrusse11]

Jim,
Lookin' good! My only comment is to make the crimp a tad deeper, compare the lip on your shells to a factory load. The usual standard is about .050- .060". And better to have the pie pieces concave rather than the least bit convex, that way they'll never open up over time.
Cheers,
R*2

[JIMinPHX]

I took a look at those shells again this morning. None of them seemed to have wanted to open up yet, but I will try crimping them a little deeper next time. I think that I will need to go to a wad with a deeper shot cup to get them concave. The pink wads hold the slug up too high to allow my crimp to go any deeper than what you see in the previous picture.

I had some improvements with the roll crimp too, but not enough to really call it something that I am happy with. I got the inexpensive plastic roll crimp tool that you recommended. It was a big improvement over what I had been trying to use previously. The big difference was the two little fingers inside the roll groove. My other tool had lacked that feature. I think that if I add some little rollers in there on my tool, it might really help.

I tried the roll crimp tool on the Winchester hulls that I had been using & also on some Federal hulls that I had. It worked better on the Federals, so I used them for roll crimping. It appears to me that slight differences in the diameter of the plastic make a big difference in how well the tool works. I think that different hulls may prefer different roll crimp tools.

My results are shown below. They are not picture perfect, but they are a start. I think that I may be getting them too hot when I crimp. Some of them are getting the top section torn off when I fire them. I think that may be due to the plastic getting brittle from too much heat. If anyone has a different opinion of why that might happen, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks,
Jim

[Rrusse11]

Jim,
You're doing great. The ideal for roll crimping, and I'm no expert, is to get your hands on new, uncrimped hulls. But then if you take a trip to your local trap, skeet, or sporting clays venue you'll be able to get buckets of once fired hulls for nothing. Be aware that case capacities vary according to the type of base wad configuration. The original "gold standard" was the Win AA compression formed one piece hull. Of similar construction these days is the Remington, with the gun club "promo" or cheap hull being a one piece unit. Their STS is the premium type, and actually still has a genuine brass base and rim, easier to resize, and different plastic.
The other basic type is the Federal straight wall hull with a seperate base wad. Plastic wads are designed for the different internal diameter configurations, and payloads. Gets real complicated in a hurry! Changing hull types, wads, powder and primers all lead to different pressures, and trust me, it don't always make any sense as to what apparently minor changes can lead to LARGE spikes in pressure.
Sign yourself up on Shotgunworld.com and do some searches on roll crimping, lots of ppl and information, and details on the construction of what appears to be a simple tool. Then have a look at the reloading section, lots of good advice available there too.
But you're results are looking fine, don't worry about getting a load that's only good for one shot, like I say, take a bucket or two along to any active shotgun venue, and you'll have LOTS of fodder for your ammo.
Cheers,
R*2

[JIMinPHX]

I did a little more fooling around with roll crimps tonight. I took what I learned from looking at that $10 plastic roll crimper, added a little common sense, adjusted some dimensions to better match the Winchester hulls that I have a large supply of, & came up with this. I'm pretty happy.

[Rrusse11]

Jim,
Very nice! Got a roller thingy in there? Lol, let me know if you get a 16ga model up and running. As I think I mentioned, I'm a claybird shooter, the sporting type, and go thru >10k rounds a year, so roll crimping, while an interesting exercise, is not really on the cards for me. But lots of proponents over on 16ga.com who use them for hunting. Handy in short chambered old guns when basically you can get a 2 3/4" load into a 2 1/2" hull.
All the best, you're havin' fun!
R*2

[JIMinPHX]

Yes,
I put two contoured brass rollers in there. I didn't have room to put an axle & retaining screw, so I just let them float in a slight clearance socket & put electrical tape around the whole thing to retain them for now. I may go back & make up an aluminum retaining ring at a future date.

I used much less interference than the plastic tool did. This lets me run the tool much faster without overheating the hull. I ran it around 700rpm with good results. The higher speed & the rollers let you give a smaller push to the edge of the shell each time around. I think that is part of the reason that I got a smoother roll.

If you want a 16 Ga. roll crimp tool, you can find them here - http://www.ballisticproducts.com/pro...?number=ROLL16

If that one doesn't work well with your shells & you want one custom sized, you can send that tool to me along with a few of your hulls & I'll see if I can either improve the tool, or make one from scratch that works better.

The reason that I made one, rather than go out & buy a good one was to understand what exactly made one work better than another. It took me 4 tries & a fair amount of custom tool bit grinding to end up with something that I was satisfied with. Just buying a good one right out of the gate probably would have been the more cost effective move for me, but in the process, I learned what I wanted to learn.

Regards,
Jim

[cajun shooter]

Precision Reloading sells a metal roll crimper with 4 rollers that works great on plastic hulls. The plastic roll crimper is reserved for paper hulls only. The other advantage to roll crimping is that you can use a tool sold by PR that trims the hulls. The tool which is a wooden box also needs a plastic piece to make it complete. It trims the hulls using a razor blade. I take hulls that have a bad fold crimp and trim the hull back to remove it. PR sells a SSW wad that is designed for 2 1/2 in hulls. Use it and roll crimp and you have new ammo.