Of Goofy Lube, FWFL, Fillers, and a Dirty Rifle

[MARCORVET]

Carpetman, you are getting into fliud dynamics. Hydraulic fluids do not compress. However, if you put water, or even engine oil into a brake system, you better have a drag chute. Waxes and pet products are fairly easy to compress.

[carpetman]

Macrovet---The way I heard it was LIQUIDS dont compress---no hydraulic specs to meet--just liquids. If water for example doesnt work in brakes(I'll take your word on that--I haven't tried it--seriously have you?) it would be because of boiling away or something,but not from being compressed. I suspect they dont use water in brake lines because of the rust factor. When you used this water in your brake lines,did you bleed them? Air can be compressed and has to be removed.

[carpetman]

Marcovet--Forgot to add--"waxes are easy to compress"--yes in solid state they would have air and be compressable---but turn them into liquid and you dont compress them. Thats why I said I suspect they are liquid in the bore and thus not compressed. Same with ice. It has air thus it floats and you can compress it. Thawed out---cant be done. Urr uhh when thawed it's guess what---a liquid. Pet products--dont know what you are referring to there---but not a liquid. Certainly a can of dog food could be. Kitty litter---do it when the cat is in there and despite their being 90% or so liquid,you can compress that other 10%. Try it on a few---make that a whole bunch and post the results.

[carpetman]

Marcovet---Not to beat the issue to death,just another thing to ponder. I have seen deer shot with a 30-06 that have close to a 6 inch exit hole. You really think a 150 grain bullet would expand to 6 inches? Get a hammer,a big hammer and try to flatten out a bullet to 6 inches. If you make it,you think that flimsy piece of foil would cut through a deer? The deer is 90% or so liquid already and when struck with those 3,000 pounds or whatever it is of pressure,it probably removes the air or whatever that other 10% is and effectively makes it 100% liquid and is applying pressure and not being compressable it escapes someplace--which is on the off side thus the big hole. The bullet if recovered might have a mushroom(plunger effect on the liquid)but wont be anywhere near 6 inches---but the hole was.

[MARCORVET]

Pet is short for PETroleum products where I work. I guess that I thought that you would understand that. Sorry.

[StarMetal]

Buckshot and I have done alot of sizing down of cast bullets from one size to a much smaller size. We have found out that if this is done without the bullet being lubed first that the lube grooves will distort alot. After all you're displacing the metal and it has to go somewhere and if no lube is on it, it will take up the space the groove was in. With the lube the bullet grows alot longer because the lube keeps the metal from occupying that space. So....maybe wax in the solid state isn't so compressable.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I think pressure is involved in the hot powder gases cutting the lead. You can run your finger through a candle flame fast and not get burned, but try that with a high pressure jet flame of some sort. I'll tell you something that's not a flame but will cut your fingers or even you hand off. That is superheated steam. You never check for a superheated steam leak with your hand, you use a mirror.

Joe

[JohnH]

I don't know the time of a bullets flight down the bore, I just know that it is LESS that 1/100th second, I would suspect that it is far less than that, or about 1/10,000 second, and is why I have such trouble with the idea of the bullet losing metal to melt as a result of the heat of the flame, just ain't enough time. I don't doubt gas cutting, thought I said so, may not have been clear, but I think that is a rare phenonemon, at least somewhat. If, a bullet is too hard to obturate to fill the throat/bore then I am sure gas cutting will occur, and I think that senario most likely with hard bullets and hard lubes and mild pressures. But if a bullet properly fits the throat/bore then how is it that gas cutting can occur? We are in fact instructed when using cast bullets to insure that the bullet fits so that this does not occur, so if one is getting gas cutting, something is wrong, wrong hardness for the pressure, wrong lube for the pressure, bad bullet fit (always the first suspect). We are always up against the limits of any given bullet hardenss and lube quality.

What cannot be argued is that as bullet speed is increased, the quality of the lube must be up to the task as well. If the lube won't take the pressure/velocity there is little a hard bullet can do but lead. At least so we are told, and I suspect is correct, as I can drive 20:1 to 1800 fps from my 38-55 with Goofy Lube and Lyman Super Moly, but I can't get there with simple Emmerts, though Emmerts is just fine at 1000 fps. (Haven't tried FWFL at 1800 yet, but I hear it is up ot the task)

It may be that another contributing factor to leading is friction heat. Now this I have much leass trouble believing, and it may be that when the bullet is driven with enough pressure and velocity, that the lube liquifies as a result of friction. We know that the lube melts, how else would a lube star at the muzzle be formed? We also know that when the lube is not of a quality or quantity (as the case may be) to hang with the bullet to the end of the bore, we get leading. At this point, I am at the limit of my knowledge and experience.

[StarMetal]

John

I can't see the lube turning to liquid when alot of us find bullets in the target or dirt that still have some if not all their lube. You would think that if it's a liquid for the short time in the bore that it would spin off upon the bullet exiting the muzzle. I don't think so much that the bullet alloy is melted by the powder flame, but cut. I think the gas finds the weakess point on that bullet/bullet base and starts in there. From examining alot of fired bullets, and especially ones that are gas checked, it appears the pressure is more concentrated in the center axis of the bullet. Felix said something about this one time when I mentioned it. I find alot of gas checks that are really cupped, towards the bullet, on bullets I have recovered.

Joe

[felix]

JohnH, no, the lead does not melt anytime, unless by blowby which does the ugly deed on sharp corners that are not covered completely & tightly by the barrel/chamber. Lead will strip off in slivers that might or might not be seen upon sunlight inspection. More than likely, you will get a lead wash, which for our argument is extremely small slivers anyway. This leading (coppering for condoms) occurs when the barrel says it likes the boolit better than the boolit itself does. (Sorta' like wife stealing). Increasing the toughness, not necessairly the hardness, of the lead will circumvent this stripping. Stripping can be induced by a twist too fast, or by a lube which has failed at the point where the stripping begins. Now, you can force the boolit to stay together and not strip by blowing it down the barrel so fast that the barrel has no time to do the stripping. In other words, the obturation (boolit expansion) is too hard, making the boolit too solid of a mass to strip in the time allocated. This occurs around 3000-3200, and then the boolit might explode anyway because of air friction at around 35-70 yards. A 7 twist is terrible on a 264 boolit, because that mass (diameter) is much harder to get up to rotational speed in comparison to a 224 diameter boolit. This is why Joe can shoot his 22's quite fast with a 7 twist. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Now we're getting somewhere. The mass is the part the problem with the 6.5's. You know another thing Felix, my AR15 barrel has a chromed lined bore and in my opinion they foul ALOT less. Even with condoms that barrel is a breeze to clean. Another one that is easy to clean is my 7.7 Jap, again another chrome lined barrel. By the way I'm starting to see some match chrome lined barrels and the test are very promising.

Joe

[44man]

I like the cat thing better! Could a good lube be made from the remains? UMMM, hairy Felix. The hair would act like a brush and clean out the lead at every shot.
I have to wonder if the larger diameter and longer boolits like the .475 and up contribute to leading due to so much lead in contact with the bore. I shoot .476 to .4765 boolits and get a lot of lead with WW metal. It pushes right out with a few patches and there is no sign of any sticking to the steel. I do think WW metal does lead more then a harder or softer alloy for some strange reason. I always add tin and antimony to WW's for hunting with no leading problems but it is expensive, so most of the year I use the free WW's. I notice this in the BPCR also even with boolits .002 over groove diameter. I get no lead with softer alloys even down to pure lead.
Are there any facts to support this idea? Help, Felix!

[felix]

44man, I am not sure about "facts" but what you are observing is correct enough (for the board) to say these things we are discussing are indeed facts. Consider the rotational forces necessary when shooting your 475 boolits! It would seem to me via your discussion the twist rate is way too much in your pistol(s) for the lead quality you are shooting. Gosh, for a boolit light enough to shoot with comfort would probably only require a 28-30 twist at the very most. I bet your gun has a 20 twist or better, eh? ... felix

[Willbird]

I was reading in marks Handbook that fluids DO compress, but they treat them as incompressible to make things simpler to explain.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

It may be that another contributing factor to leading is friction heat. Now this I have much leass trouble believing, and it may be that when the bullet is driven with enough pressure and velocity, that the lube liquifies as a result of friction. We know that the lube melts, how else would a lube star at the muzzle be formed? We also know that when the lube is not of a quality or quantity (as the case may be) to hang with the bullet to the end of the bore, we get leading. At this point, I am at the limit of my knowledge and experience.

John,

Education is a wonderful thing. So is speculating on why something happens. It is what allows us to plan our next step in what ever process we are involved in. But concentrate more with results and what can be done to improve your results assuming you are not satisfied. Because for everything involved in this hobby, nothing is an absolute. Because we all shoot differently with different objectives in mind.

I remember reading in the Fouling Shot of a guy that shot cast with absolutely NO lube. Got fair groups and no gas cutting and no leading. I believe that velocity was up to or over 1000 fps in a 357 Mag, but I can't be sure now. The article with pictures is still there.

So a lot of lube "theories" went by the way side on that one. You constantly read things like when the bench rest nationals were held in Kansas a few years back and everyone was surprised at record groups with 105 degree temps. Well that just tells me that the temperature was solving an over lubrication condition that they weren't aware that they had.

To the other extreme, I built a 45 caliber rifle bullet design and over lubed it to test a concept. If bullet design is .... suportive, then you have more flexibility to over lube, or use a broader selection of lubes before problems arise. Or stated another way, you have a bullet design with a higher velocity potential.

So that is both sides of the lube spectrum. What is a shooter to do? Everything, every technique you develop is based on how "you" shoot and want "your" loads to perform.

So lube is the barrier we must all deal with in some fashion for better shooting. to

[carpetman]

Willbird---You read in Mark's Handbook(Is that Ol Jumptrap--if so that explains it)that fluids do compress but they treat them as incompressible to make things easier to explain. Was wondering if he has a section about whether the world is round or flat and if so does he give the name of Columbus's 4th ship? The one that fell off the edge.

[StarMetal]

Carpetman

With the rapid recent advance in quantum physics, they think they might have discovered that ship in a time warp in outer space. They are concocting a plan to try to retrieve, as it should be in a perfect preservation state.

Joe

[wills]

Willbird--- does he give the name of Columbus's 4th ship? The one that fell off the edge.

The Fajita ?

[Willbird]

Marks Handbook is a popular and well respected engineering handbook, and while I do not recall if it gives exactamounts for other fluids it does give an exact amount that water in a 1 mile long section of pipe would compress at a given pressure.

http://www.insidersecretstohydraulic...mpression.html

that link there says hydrauliuc fluids compress .4% by volume at 1000PSI...that is a significant amount.

so with what we are talking about it could be very possble that the lube compress's while the bullet is in the plastic state, and that when gas pressure drops off that the fluid is still under pressure because the bullet has been compressed to fit the lube in it's compressed state.

Bill

[utk]

Read this article by Glen Fryxsell "Lubricating Cast Bullets":

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/lube.htm