Black powder explanation needed.

[littlejack]

Two days ago, I sighted my Uberti with new loads at 100 yards. Groups were
very good. One group ran .810" for 5 dry shots in the ten ring. The other ran
1.8" for 6 shots with blow tube.
The load was:
Lyman 457125, 20-1 alloy, 522 gr, sized .459, hand lubed w/Emmetts.
WW cases neck sized.
WLR primers.
75 grains Goex ctg. compressed .150, w/.030 opw.
Crimped just to take out the bell.
COL 2.975 w/ 1+ grease groove to show.

Fast forward to today.
I went to the 200 yard range. Raised the peep 14 moa on the staff.
I did not have my spotting scope with me, ( long story), so I started shooting the
Goex ctg load again. Everything the same as two days ago at 100 yards except
the peep height. I fired 8 shots. The main group was 6 shots 2.5" centers, 3"
low of the X ring, dead center windage. 2 shots 3.5" high, 1" left for windage.
These could have been foulers, I do not know. No scope.

Now, here's is the MYSTERY. I also loaded 7 rounds using Goex FFF. With
EVERYTHING the same, except the powder grade. These loads hit 16" low of the
X ring. The group was approximately 4" wide and 7" tall. Some of the shots
didn't hit the paper. They went low into the backboard. One even missed the
backboard.
I thought FFF burned hotter and would have placed the boolits higher in
the target, not lower. Someone want to tell me the ABC's of black
powder. I must have been absent on lug nut day.
This doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Jack

[george1980]

jack , some people say that the theory im about to float to you as hogwash , but the old timer that taught me to shoot explained to me that the slower your load the longer it stays in the barrel thus giving recoil more of a chance to raise the muzzle before the bullet exits thus at shorter ranges slower loads hit higher on the target , im sure that some will argue but it makes sense to me ,

[KCSO]

Same thing with 45 Colt from a rifle slower loads to a point hit HIGHER on the target. 3F has never been my cup of tea for rifle loads. I have never got as good a group as with FF or FG powder. It way be that it tends to clup up to solid when compressed??? I don't know.

[littlejack]

George, I understand this. This is the way of the handgun shooter. If the boolit hits high, the velocity is slow, more barrel time. If the boolit hits low, the velocity is faster, less barrel time. This is not the case with a rifle and longer distances.

Example: If a powder, Goex FFF is supposed to burn hotter than Goex ctg; the boolit will go
faster and not drop as much, and consequently not drop as much as the slower load and
the boolit will strike higher. WHAT WENT WRONG?
Jack

[littlejack]

KCSO:
You may have something there in the clumping. I may go get me some FF and try it.
I'm always striving to improve my best.
Jack

[Dragoon 45]

Two days ago, I sighted my Uberti with new loads at 100 yards. Groups were
very good. One group ran .810" for 5 dry shots in the ten ring. The other ran
1.8" for 6 shots with blow tube.
The load was:
Lyman 457125, 20-1 alloy, 522 gr, sized .459, hand lubed w/Emmetts.
WW cases neck sized.
WLR primers.
75 grains Goex ctg. compressed .150, w/.030 opw.
Crimped just to take out the bell.
COL 2.975 w/ 1+ grease groove to show.

Fast forward to today.
I went to the 200 yard range. Raised the peep 14 moa on the staff.
I did not have my spotting scope with me, ( long story), so I started shooting the
Goex ctg load again. Everything the same as two days ago at 100 yards except
the peep height. I fired 8 shots. The main group was 6 shots 2.5" centers, 3"
low of the X ring, dead center windage. 2 shots 3.5" high, 1" left for windage.
These could have been foulers, I do not know. No scope.

Now, here's is the MYSTERY. I also loaded 7 rounds using Goex FFF. With
EVERYTHING the same, except the powder grade. These loads hit 16" low of the
X ring. The group was approximately 4" wide and 7" tall. Some of the shots
didn't hit the paper. They went low into the backboard. One even missed the
backboard.
I thought FFF burned hotter and would have placed the boolits higher in
the target, not lower. Someone want to tell me the ABC's of black
powder. I must have been absent on lug nut day.
This doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Jack

I tried using FFFg in both my .45-70 and .40-65. My results were terrible. My groups resembled shot gun patterns from 100 yds on out. While I don't know how to prove this, I suspect that using the FFFg in those big cases some how allowed the powder to be compressed too much (although I used the same amount of compression as I would with FFg or Goex Cartridge). Therefore I suspect that the powder did not burn completely thus lowering the velocity and providing abysmal accuracy, not to mention more fouling.

All that said I would not load anything but FFFg in my .45 Colt. Tried FFg and got terrible accuracy.

I may try using FFFg again but cutting the powder charge down by 4-5 grns and see what happens. Possibly FFFg might work well with little or no compression?

[David2011]

Littlejack,

I experienced the same thing with my Contender the first trip to the range. After sighting in at 50 yards with .44 Special loads I switched to Magnum loads. They shot -under- the backboard the target was mounted on.

David

[littlejack]

Dragoon, I'm starting to see a pattern here. Thanks you for your post.
Jack

[littlejack]

David, this is what will happen when shooting different velocities in handgun loads. The same does not happen in rifle loads, in my expierience.
Jack

[Maven]

Jack, Would chronographing the Goex Cartridge v. Goex FFFg loads shed some light on the subject?

[Gadzooks Mike]

The powder is faster, but that doesn't mean the bullet is travelling faster. Faster powder like FFF on a heavy bullet is akin to punching a bowling ball to get it moving. A nice long, slow wind-up and swing of the arm gets the ball moving faster.

[littlejack]

Maven, I may Chrony a couple loads of each powder to determine how the velocities compare to each other.

[littlejack]

GMike:
If one uses the same amount of powder in two loads, one powder being fast, and one
powder being slower, the faster powder will result in higher pressure, thus producing higher
velocities. I do not see any way around this.
There must be some effect on the FFF and the compression causing it to burn at a lower
preassure, than the ctg. powder with the same compression.
What I did notice though when shootin, the FFF loads did kick more than the ctg. loads.
Go figure?
Jack

[george1980]

one thing im not understanding , you agree with a slower bullet printing higher on paper with a handgun but not a rifle , im not doubting i'd just like to hear a theory on why , in my slow twisted brain it still makes sense after all 100 yds to a rifle isnt exactly long range , i can understand why you wouldnt see a slower bullet hitting higher at longer ranges when youll see enough loss of velocity to negate the longer hang time in the barrel , someone please show me the error of my thinking

[cajun shooter]

What you are not seeing is the "BURN RATE" between the powders. Goex takes much more time making it's Cartridge powder than the regular 2 and 3F powders. The grains of Cartridge are much more uniform in size than the standard powder. 3F powder is not all 3F as it will contain some 2F grains and also some fines in the 4F range. I have looked at these powders under a microscope and it is amazing to see the different shapes. It is the same as snowflakes. I have a lot of time with snowflakes here in Louisiana. The Goex Cartridge powder that I loaded last spring in my 45-70 was 1 shot off from shooting the same size group as my loads with Swiss 1 1/2. If you look at the screen test for Cartridge it is almost the same as the Express powders.

[littlejack]

g1980:
Here is the best way I can explain it. If one is shooting at 100 yards with a 22 rimfire rifle.
The rifle is sighted in dead on with Long rifle 36 grain ammo, maybe Stinger. Now shoot at
the target with a 22 short round with a 36 grain bullet. Guess where that "short" bullet is
going to impact? Way low.
The impacts would be the same, no matter what cartridge a person used. A bullet going 2000 fps will drop less, (hit higher) at a certain
distance than a bullet going 1750 fps. That is why alot of hunters strive for the highest velocities, (flatest shooting) for their load. There is
less room for error and less holdover for the shooter.
Jack

[littlejack]

cajun shooter:
I have read on this forum that Goex 2F powder, and Swiss 1 1/2 shoots faster than Goex
ctg. by a little. Also that 3F shoots faster than any of the three powders.
3F is used in handgun cartridges, to get the most velocity from the small case.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying the opposite?
From what I have seen with my naked eye, when loading, the Goex 3F is definately a finer
grain than the Goex ctg.
I guess I will have to Chrony some loads with the Goex 3F and the Goex ctg. to prove to
myself that one is definately faster that the other. I believe that the 3F will be the winner.
Jack

[george1980]

ok jack , i do understand what your saying there its pretty simple but your not taking recoil into consideration but ill wait for some chrono data before i confuse myself more than i already am , tomarow im going to get my .45 hawken rifle out and for giggles im going to shoot a few stout loads of both ffg and fffg goex and see what happens , sorry but i dont have any cartridge to try

[littlejack]

Thanks George, Let us know what your results are.
Jack

[cajun shooter]

littlejack, I was not referring to the speed on the cronograph. I was making the point that the fastest bullet is not always the most accurate. I was talking about internal ballistics and the way each powder burns. Black powder burns from the outside in. The more angles on each grain will cause it to burn much different than a more even sided one. Your cronograph will show the 3F to be the fastest. You might have read my post but did not take time to see what I was saying. Take a look at Swiss powder and look at plain powder of any other brand. the grains are smoother and even sided. Now go to a big match and see if they are looking for the fastest or most accurate.