.357 for whitetail deer

[Larry Gibson]

Great thread here. I've been over here in Iraq for nearly two years and have learned a TON about casting and cast bullets! When I get home this fall, I intend to start my OJT in the casting world. As for using a .357, I've killed a couple of Texas deer with a 4" Model 19 and the Winchester 145 STHP. The deer were very impressed and died quickly. When I saw one of the first posts in this thread that indicated the STHP was a short penetrator, I was shocked but then noted it came from a rifle, not a revolver. My experience on the deer with that round was very satisfactory, with good expansion and full penetration. During my LE career, which started in 1978 and saw the mass transition from revolvers to autopistols, we noted in the Dallas area that the 145 STHP was an EXCELLENT load to use on bad guys too...

Wayne

You be careful over there. I spent all of 2005 over there so I know that "safe" can be a fleeting concept. Be sure to ask for any advise as we are full of it, advise too!

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson obliquely hit upon a facet of this discussion that I would like to pursue at length once the Lee/357 Maximum/180 grain boolit is in hand, and with the Lyman #358156. With the gas check to "cheat" with, softer alloys driven at faster velocities become possible.

I currently run the #358156 well past 1500 FPS in the Bisley Blackhawk, and accuracy remains constant from 1200 FPS forward. Slug alloy is 92/6/2. If softer alloys--say, WW or WW/lead @ 50/50 provided similar accuracy and enhanced expansion potential, I think a net gain could be realized. After the 180 grainer arrives, I think some tactical casting to get metallurgy tweaks might be in order with the 180 RFN/GC and the #358156. I guess what it boils down to is diluting the antimony--a little tin to make things flow nicely might be a good thing, too.

Deputy Al

It is written that it is the antimony plus a tudge of arsenic that causes hardening but lets the alloy remain ductile (SP?) and expand instead of shatter. When we add tin we make it into a much more brittle alloy condusive to shattering. I had hunted with several differant lead/tin/antimony alloys of varying degree and hardness over the years. I never really got what I considered to be good expansion. With softer such alloys in HP bullets the front of the bullets always shattered off leaving just the back end of the bullet. With FN/SWC bullets if there was expansion the petals would shear off instead of rolling back.

Can't remember where I first read about using recovered 22LR lead which has a small amount of antimony in it only. It was claimed this is what hardens the bullet and admonished not to add any tin what so ever. I just happened to have some reclaimed 22LR lead and gave it a try with my 31141 HP (shortened HP stem) in the 30-30. I cast them hot and water quenched them. I shot them side by side with a soft solder/lead alloyed 31141 HP and a air cooled WW 31141 HP into water soaked newsprint at 50 yards. I don't have the exact load here but recall the velocity was right at 2000 fps. the nose sheared off the WW bullet and it had the deepest penetration. The nose had sheared off the solder/lead bullet but it sjhowed a wider cavity and was a couple inches short of the WW bullet. The hardened 22LR alloy 31141 HP bullet expanded nicely, had the widest cavity, retained the most weight and penetrated the least.

Since that test I have also used magnum shot (lead + 3-5% antimony) with several different cast bullets. I have found as you have that accuracy is good at 1400+ fps in magnum revolvers and with a good swc expansion is also good out to 50 yards. The Lee 458-500 FPGC bullet cast of 22LR and water quenched out of my bolt action 45-70 at 1700 fps so far has proved to be a devestaing hunting load. Wish I had got into the gp buy on the 180 gr RFN/GC .358 bullet for use in my M91 Argie converted to .35 Remington as I think it will be an excellent candidate for just such an alloy. But also, I did not.

Further testing remains to be done.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

Hard chilled shot (3-5% antimony) works just as well. Such bullets cast of this alloy and hardened still are very maleable at impact and do not shatter or shear like WWs or #2 alloys. Larry Gibson

Larry,

You need to change the filters on that M17 Protective Mask there buddy. Let in a little more O2

WW are 2% - 4% antimony these days. Same as the chilled shot. The chilled shot has a higher arsenic content which causes cracking. And you prefer that stuff?

Strange how people get different results. That's why we can't come up with rules.

Are you pushing to get my handle?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

You need to change the filters on that M17 Protective Mask there buddy. Let in a little more O2

WW are 2% - 4% antimony these days. Same as the chilled shot. The chilled shot has a higher arsenic content which causes cracking. And you prefer that stuff?

Strange how people get different results. That's why we can't come up with rules.

Are you pushing to get my handle?

Filters are new and other than the stateside gas chamber I never had to use the mask.

Yes WWs have antimony as does chilled shot but WWs also have tin. That is the problem; the lead/antimony/tin has the tendancy to shatter/shear when hardened instead of ductile expansion property. The straight lead/antimony alloy of chilled shot and 22LR lead have this property when hardened. NO TIN is what is needed. The arsenic content is what apparently makes the lead/antimony alloy harden when water quenched yet remain ductile for expansion. I'm not a metalurgist specialist but that's what they've written. I've tried it and it works, I like to go with what works even if I don't totally understand why.

Larry Gibson

[Dixie Slugs]

Interesting! I started hangun hunting in 1956 with the then-new Ruger in .44 Mag. Went out a got the famous (infamous?) #429421 mold. Loaded Keith's load with #2400 and started hunting. Deer and hogs hit well ran off. Had to go get the dogs to trail up. Problem?......over penetration with little tissue damage! Changed over to the old Speer half jacket and problem stopped. Much later read Veral Smith's workup on bullet design.....LBT's.
After all was said and done......it's meplat area for tissue damage in cast no matter what the caliber!
After having quite a few bones in my right hand replaced with steel......changed over to a slicked out 6" Smith & Wesson 686. John Anderson (former Rock Island Ballistics) and I designed a series of heavy bullets with very very large meplats. My favorites are the 180 gr Truncated Cone Wadcutter and the 175 gr Xtreme Meplat Cast. Since I moved over to the Smith, I have killed quite a few deer and large hogs with both. The secret is meplat area and a heavy bullet!
Yes, the .357 Mag is good for deer and hogs......with the correct bullet design!
Regards, James@Dixie slugs

[Wayne Dobbs]

Can you post some pics of your two bullet designs?

Wayne

[Dixie Slugs]

I have tried to attach the jpg's of the two bullets. I anyone is interested, I will post John's email address. I has a great alloy and the bullets are sizeed, lubed, and heat treated......Regards, James

[Cayoot]

I'm very interested!

Are these moulds still available?

[Dixie Slugs]

After we designed these bullets, as well as two each for the .44 & 45, he had the molds cut for his casting machine. He opened up Rock Island Ballistics and started shipping bullets. His regular job changed the hours and he shut down his machines. Plans are now that he will start up again with his six bullets as componenets under my Dixie Slugs Co. this Fall.
The 44 bullet called the Truncated Cone Wadcutter is designed to feed perfect in the Marlin 1894 series guns. It weighs 265 grs, which I have a found perfect weight/velocity combo in the gun. We spent quite a few hours turning nose shapes and crimp groove location for the Marlin. I tested the .44 TCW in my Marlin 1894P on hogs in South Florida. I bullet perform extremely well! Bill M on Beartooth Bullets posted that the .44 Truncated Bullet was the most accurate cast bullet he had tested in the .44 Mag. I know Bill, know how well he shoots, and the care he uses in testing bullets.
I have decided, from Gut-Pile Analysis, that the single most important factor for tissue damage when using hard cast is the area of the meplat! Weight is important for penetration, but I think it is overdone today..........Regards, James

[Cayoot]

So I take it that the moulds are not available for us to obtain. Which, of course, would probably also rule out making a GB out of some of these excellent looking desings of yours?

I probably shouldn't even ask that....but I gotta remove the final vestage of hope!

[Dixie Slugs]

I hope you understand that Dixie Slugs is also a licensed ammo maker and specializes in certain products. Our 12 and 20 bore loads are a re-introduction of the famous Paradox loads the Brits knocked over some rather large animals in Africa/India.
As for the bullets John and I designed.......we plan to put them in the line as components this fall. John may decide to offer them to other ammo makers??????
If not, we may decide to offer loaded rounds.......it all depends on the situation with orders on our existing loads.
What I am not interested in is competing with other ammo makers, and rather us staying in our little specialised procuct line. I will say this though.....any one deciding to have a mold cut.........set up as large a meplat as one can! Most of our production molds have been lathe cut by either Mountian Molds or Victory Molds.
However, who knows what might come up?.........James@Dixie Slugs

[Cayoot]

Holy Cow!!!

I'm sorry James...I didn't know you were running this as a business.

Nuf Said!

[Dixie Slugs]

Not at all! I came over here, not to hark a business, but rather that I am very interested in cast bullets! I am very interested in cast bullet designs that are to be used for hunting. We do a world of testing/hunting with cast bullets and thought maybe to be able to be involved on this interesting forum.
Regards, James

[Cayoot]

Well let me say "Welcome!"

There are alot of great folks on here and this place is a wealth of knowledge!

Glad to have you aboard!

[Wayne Dobbs]

Dixie Slugs,

That's a nice web site you guys have and I bet those SG slug loads you produce knock the snot out of whatever you shoot with it! Whenever you guys can, I want to buy a couple hundred of both those .38/.357 bullet styles from you.

Wayne

[Dixie Slugs]

Wayne & All.......The Dixie page is a mess right now! Shotgun World had a crash and had to reload the old saved data. We should have the page updated showing all our present products soon.
Anyhow, It is good to be here with a group that understands the use of cast bullets!
We are going to need some advice on .50 caliber hard cast bullets soon from all of you. We are considering a 12 ga sabot load with a .50 cal cast bullet. Any time we can help on a discussion concering hard cast slugs in shotguns......both rifled barrels and smoothbore, we will help all we can here
Back to .357 cast bullet designs......John is doing a shooting test now that will show the different size cavities based on meplat designs. From what I have heard so far, it backs up our thoughts on meplat area........ergo tissue damage. While no media really matches tissue/muscle/bone, it is a way to compare the design and construction of one bullet design vs another...........James

[Dixie Slugs]

Wayne and All........Anyone wanting to buy some of John's bullets before we get them on Dixie's web page........contact me at jcgates@bellsouth.net I will foward it to John Anderson.
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[BPCS]

What type of alloy would be preferred for the 357 Magnum in a rifle for deer, shooting a 158gr. load? I would assume straight linotype would give the best penetration and an exit hole at reasonable ranges.

[Junior1942]

Plain ol' air cooled wheelweight alloy works fine for me in my Rossi 357. Using Lee Liquid Alox, I push it to 1850 fps with no leading.

[versifier]

The problem with lino is the lack of expansion. .35 cal is right on the line as to it being an absolute necessity, but even so, the softer ww boolits with gas checks can stabilize without a problem at hunting velocities and they expand too. Lino makes great target boolits for rifles, especially for .30 cal and smaller, but it is less dense and the boolits weigh a lot less: 180gr in WW vs 162gr in lino (Lee C309-180).