Anyone Know What "AV" Means?

[Bent Ramrod]

I generally only buy "new" molds if they happen to be second-hand unused at gun shows, but I have come across a couple of newly-catalogued Lymans-- A 314299 DC and a 457643 SC. After the number on both, there's an "AV." Does anyone know what this means?

I've seen "U" for Undersize (actually more the nominal size in the good old days) and "R" for Reject (have two of these that cast just as good bullets just as well as the non-Reject molds), but AV is a new one on me.

The 457643 is the first bullet that my Garrett Arms Sharps carbine shoots decently with black powder. Haven't tried the 314299's yet, but used to shoot a 308299 in an Arisaka with pretty good results. The 314299 has a nose section of 0.302" and a driving section of 0.313"

[Buckshot]

.............The 314299 isn't a newly cataloged number. It's an old design and so far as I know has been continuously available. Probably Floodgate would have the definative answer. I know Lyman marks the blocks to keep them together throughout the manufacturing process. That AV may be a cherry identifier. That's my best guess.

.................Buckshot

[floodgate]

I'm afraid I don't know what the "AV" stands for, either; I've seen it several times too. In adition to "U" for undersize, Lyman also used - many years back - an "S" for (I think) "small"; I have a #360271-S unvented block set. The block matching is by numbers, one, two or three digits that appear on both blocks. For the past couple of years, Lyman has added the month/year of manufacture, which will help future casters and collectors. Yeah, I bought several sets of "rejects" back around 1982-84 when they offered them at discounts to jobbers and dealers, abd they have all worked fine for me. Referring to the changing nose shapes of the #308291/#311291 and others, I still maintain that - contrary to good machine shop toolroom practice - the guys who make the cherries did (and still do?) a lot of it by eye and not by the numbers; there's too much variation in shapes and weights over the years (aside from deliberate changes like square to round grooves on the Keiths). Floodgate

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks, Buckshot and Floodgate, for your responses.

The old numbering for 314299 was the 311299, so I gave it a "new" designation because of the change in the number. I would suggest that the "S" stands for "Short." I have the 280468 125 gr .270 Loverin mold and also found the 103-grain version, missing one driving band and grease groove, with the "S" designation.

I've also found a Lyman mold with "CV" on it, and one Ideal marked "EXP." I wouldn't think it's "Experimental" or anything since it's a standard 311413. You'd think these companies would learn eventually that they're making history as well as just making products and making money; that the stuff they stamp on their products is going to eventually be driving collectors crazy in a few years.

[LowPE]

I have a 429421G mold that is probably 25 years old or so. I have no clue what the G means. Got it from an old silhouette shooter. He also gave me two lyman molds & one has the reversed N in Lyman.

[floodgate]

Bent Ramrod, Buckshot:

The #360271 and the #311299 were both introduced in Ideal Handbook #18 (1907).

#360271 was a B. F. Wilder SWC design for the .38 S &W Spl., and the #360271-S was the same bullet, reduced in diameter (per HB #31, 1934 - which shows both versions - though I don't yet have the year it was first logged) to fit the 0.354" groove diameter Colt favored at that time (vs. the 0.357" used by S&W). So the "-S" here clearly indicates "small". Both were dropped sometime around WW II (I haven't covered that period yet in my research into old HB's).

#311299 was one of the first gas check bullets by Ideal and was designed for the .303 British; it was carried through 1980, dropped in 1981, and re-issued in 2002. The oversized version, #314299, was introduced in 1991, as a better fit to the .303 and the 7.65's (as well as the Mosin-Nagants, etc.). Both are still in the catalog as of 2005.

Thus endeth today's history lesson.

floodgate

[floodgate]

Bent Ramrod:

E-mail me your "snail mail" address; I've got the Modern-Bond info ready to go to you.

floodgate

[floodgate]

More On The #360271-S. Just whebn I think I've got it all sorted out, new stuff crops up. Delving into Lyman literature around 1960, I ran across this bullet listed as #358271 in the caralogs from 1961 and 1962; it also shows up in this form in the 1st (1958) and 2nd (1973) Cast Bullet Handbooks, and in the "Special Factory Order" lists from 1972 - 74. THEN, I found it in the "U for undersize" lists in footnotes to the 1961-2 catalogs, and HCB-1 of 1958 shows it in the mould diameter table as casting 0.360" in standard #358271 form, and 0.358" from the U358271. Going back further, a 1956 list shows it again as #360271! Furthermore, #358271 is shown as also available in a shortened single-grease-groove 125 version as well as the two-groove (with deep base band) version we see elsewhere, and in my unvented #360271-S. VERY complicated! floodgate

[floodgate]

I had also remembered seeing another notation somewhere, and it turned up in the 1956 fold-out chart: "U311413-E-S (extra small)" - no diameter given, but as HCB-1 shows #311413 as casting 0.313" and #U311413 at 0.309" (presumably in Lyman's standard No. 2 alloy), #U311413-E-S must have been 'WAY undersized - I winder who needed it and what for? floodgate

[floodgate]

GL Master: I REALLY like the "Quick Reply " feature. And, yopu've got the type face JUST RIGHT. Thanks! floodgate

[Bent Ramrod]

Floodgate,

I sent my address on my return e-mail to you. Thanks for the rundown on the Modern-Bond stuff you sent, and the Lyman mold story on this thread.

LowPE,

The "G" is a new one on me, too. Hang on to that Lyman mold with the reversed "N." When mold collecting gets popular, that one will be the equivalent of the postage stamp with the airplane upside down.

[felix]

Woman who fly upside down in airplane have big crack up. Anyway, that's what I have heard. ... Confused Confucious