FN 5.7x308

[BT Sniper]

Well I thought I might take a break from the computer but just couldn't , curiosity got to me.

Jon, sounds like you got it figured out perfect. Glad to see the 280 worked. Now I don't have to track down a 270 die. How was the pressure required to size the case? Did it push it all the way threw? Did you drill and tap everything yourself? If so you are allready on your way to many more fun projects in this swaging game. Any dificulties? Sounds like it worked perfect. I'll have to make me one too for sure.

As far as annealing the 5.7s it is even easier then any of the other brass if you ask me. Because of the lacquer finish on it you'll want to cook it long enough that this finish starts to flake off. Dirrect flame is best for this and a stainlwss steel colender from wally world in a fire place or BBQ grill will anneal at least 100 cases at a time this way. Then soak them in anynumber of the recemended acid baths that have been mentioned on this sight. I tumble them afterwords and cases will be bright and shinny.

Now Jon your going to have to figure out a core mold. I suppose a 22 cal drilled out would work if we can track down one. I have used the regular lead wire fishing weight that is 1/4 diameter and it works good but unless you can trackdown a lot of it at yard sale or somthing it will be a bit expensive. We'll have you all set up pretty soon. I may be able to get you a core seat die on the way while I am busy perfecting the swage die.

Do post us some pics of your set up.

Nice job! Swage On!

BT

[jonblack]

JonB

Are you just working on getting the case forming figured out or do you have a means to make a core as well? I guess what I am wondering is if you are making full projectiles or just working on jackets.

Thanks
jonblack

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

jonblack wrote, "Are you just working on getting the case forming figured out or do you have a means to make a core as well? I guess what I am wondering is if you are making full projectiles or just working on jackets"

We are in the process for making a finished projectile. As you read through this complete thread you'll see this is one of BT's projects, I am just helping it along as I can with my minimal equipment. I do have an idea for a core mold, but with my limited experience in casting, I plan to do some casting of some LEE TL boolits to familiarize myself to casting, I have read posts on castboolits everyday since April on everything to do with swaging and casting, but have been too busy with work to do some casting...well the work ended last thursday, so I will be casting soon.

Jon, sounds like you got it figured out perfect. Glad to see the 280 worked. Now I don't have to track down a 270 die.
1...How was the pressure required to size the case?
2...Did it push it all the way threw?
3...Did you drill and tap everything yourself?
If so you are allready on your way to many more fun projects in this swaging game. Any dificulties? Sounds like it worked perfect. I'll have to make me one too for sure.

Now Jon your going to have to figure out a core mold. I suppose a 22 cal drilled out would work if we can track down one.
Do post us some pics of your set up.

1...The CH press is NOT a compound leverage type press and not that much pressure needed...a little more than FL sizing a belted magnum case I guess. Look at the photo with the case just pressed through the die but not ejected yet, the base didn't get rounded from pushing it up through the die like it appears to have been on the photo you posted in post #1
2...YES, see the photos
3...YES, I do have a small table top (china) drill press with a drill press fixture clamp. and a couple of Tap/die sets. I have worked at a circuit board MFG and made lots of testing fixtures and drilled and tapped many things. I don't have a lathe or Mill, but I have a couple of friends that do.

1/2 fine thread 1" long grade 5 bolt drilled and tapped for 1/4x28.
1/4x28 4.0" long grade 8 bolt with hex Head ground off.
the case on the left was roughly trimmed on my bandsaw (china) then tried to press it through the 270 die...you can kinda see the deformation near the head, just past the extraction groove, that is where is got stuck. I did push it through the 280 die afterward to try and clean it up. the middle case was pushed through the 280 die only untrimmed to see how the case mouth would expand. it did expand nicely to about 0.245" if the full length of the case could be used for swaging in the CH die (which I doubt) then a core cast in a .243 mold should work out nicely. again, the OD of the sized case including the head is 0.305, I did several and all were the same. the annealed case on the right is not sized at all and shown for reference only. lastly, I didn't acid bath clean these or tumble clean them, this was a quick and dirty experiment, and I may not have completely burnt off the polymer coating during annealing, it's difficult to get consistant heat on a campfire compared to my household woodstove which I didn't want to fire up in the middle of a hot summer day.


lubing a case.


just about to be sized...bottom view of 280 die in press.
I kept the base punch loosey goosey cause my tapped hole wasn't perfect.
it seemed to push the case through OK without stressing the case.


A case just pressed through to the top of the die. Because I was expanding the mouth,
the case mouth grips the base punch just enough that I can't pull it out with my fingers,
but the case is all the way through the neck sizing protion of the 280 die.


I used a 22 hornet shell holder (closest sized one I had) to grab
the base of the sized 5.7 case while I lowered the ram/base punch, to release the case form the base punch.


5.7 case lifted out and soon falls off the shell holder.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

OH yeah...the core mold.
I have a 2 cav. LEE C309-200-R mold.
it looks like I can drill a new spue hole in the spue plate inbetween
the two for the existing ones for 309 cavities, then drill a new cavity for a core without
wrecking the die...I hope.
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Great work there Jon, just as I would have done. Actually if I aquire a 280 sizing die I may just cut it down so I don't need such a long base punch. Sacrifice a sizing die to a good cause and all I was going to mention using the space inbetween teh molds to drill new core molds for this project. This is what I did on the back side of my 6 cavity 125 9mm mold. Works great just be carfull not to go to deep or to big from the start. As I recal I think I may have used a 1/4 drill but may have wanted it a bit smaller. Always easy to go up in size, back down a bit more difficult.

Swage On!

BT

[jonblack]

Actually if I aquire a 280 sizing die I may just cut it down so I don't need such a long base punch.
BT

How are you cutting down a sizing die? Or are you grinding it down to size?

Thank you
jonblack

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How are you cutting down a sizing die? Or are you grinding it down to size? Thank you jonblack

I also thought of doing that...but not until I am ready for production of hundreds of rounds.
I would use a 14" metal chop saw and water cooling while cutting.
I assume BT would use a lathe or mill ??? but I'm just guessing.
Jon

[zombiedfens]

Slightly veering off topic Regarding The 308 Cal projectiles that the CH4D dies make has anyone tried using them in a M1A/M14 or Garand or any other autoloader? im curious if the rather wide Meplat would cause feeding issues??

BT Sniper, any thought on if you could ship your improved dies and parts to Canada?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well it's time this thread is awaked from it's slumber.

I cut down the Bonanza 280 Rem FL size die.
I asked Lathesmith to cut this die for me along with an order of sizing dies I am having him modify and make some others. He said it'd be a big deal to cut it.
First anneal it, then cut, then heat treat. He said I should just use the Shop saw and water/garden hose for cooling and cut it real slow...a little at a time, never letting the metal get too hot to touch. I had success !!!
photos below...I didn't get a perfectly straight cut, but it doesn't really matter for the use this die will get. I also had to cut my base punch shorter, it was a grade 8 bolt, I used the same technique, then I put it in the chuck of my cheapo chinese drill press and squared it up like a machinist would use a Mill. that is also how I tapered the end and polish it...mentioned later.

I had some 5.7x28 brass I annealed last spring, I wanted them shorter,
so I cut them with the Harbor Frieght mini chop saw...it worked OK if I cut real slow and put a little wax on the cutting wheel. they should be cut before the annealing process once i figure out exactly what length I need. just guess and wanting to experiment I trimmed some of them to 0.850 long.
they started 0.315" in diameter, once pushed through the newly shortened die, they came out at 0.304" diameter and they grew in length by .025" to .035"
I shortened the base punch to the ideal length, but when I sized the brass, it worked the press more than it should have and the brass was crimped onto the base punch (the base punch is a grade 8 bolt 1/4x28)
So I removed some of the metal and put a taper on the end of the base punch then polished it. WHAT an improvement, sizing was lots easier and the brass just fell off the punch and into the bowl below my press. Here are some photos.
Jon

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Next, I need to play with a Core mold I bought in the Sellin and Swappin section.
it is a Lyman mold with a 4 cav. 38 WC on one side,
and 8 cavity core mold on the other side,
the cores measure about .223 by 1/2" long.
I'll first enlarger them to .250 in diameter and cast them and see what I get.
I may be able to enlarge them a little more ?

I could drill out 6 cavities to make them longer but the other two can't be, or I'll hit the alignment pins.

I'll dig into that soon.
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Awesome work Jon. I would have done the same thing to the die if I had planned to use it for sizing the brass. Maybe I still will.

I have been playing a bit lattly with the 308 projects. Got me a sizing die from drill bushings and it is taking them down to about .302 but it is difficult. I still need to work on it.

Love your upside down mount. Great idea. Nice job on the paint too, powder coat? I could see that in a reloading catalog.

What's it like pushing up to work the press? I bet if you pushed the handle threw to the other side it would be pull operation rather then push, but you would probably be standing on wrong side of press. Either way great looking set up. You guys are starting to impress me for sure. I now realize I don't have as much freee time as I once did and you guys are doing a great job moving foward with new ideas. Thanks for sharing.

I am working on your 308 die. I have 3 sets and trying to find the best one for you. I'm having problems with the core seat die spitting out seated jackets at .308 instead of .306 or so like they should. I'm still looking into it. May have to send them back and make CH send me a better one. I'll keep you informed.

Swage ON!

BT

[lathesmith]

Good work Jon, I knew you could do it! As you have discovered, those dies are hardened for a reason. Not only does it make them more resistant to dings and/or damage, but hardening also makes the surface "slicker" and less likely to grab your work. A good, hard die that is polished and tapered, along with some wax-type lube, is your best bet for most any type of re-sizing work. Way to go!

lathesmith

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

BT,
that's Krylon spraycan spray paint. the trick is very clean metal and 2 or 3 thin coats and the Heat of the Sun on a warm day for about an hour inbetween coats.

The handle of the Lee classic cast press is reverseable as well as completely adjustable.
If you examine the two photos again, you can see the Handle position to deduce movement,
It is a pull toward yourself movement at just the right height, not a reaching up type movement...that would suck!

Lathesmith,
I use a lanolin/castor oil (80/20) lube blend for sizing the brass jacket material as well as for swaging.
Jon

[Ammosmith]

BT,

Is the ogive tapered like that on the point forming die? If so how did you get the soft point so pointed? Did you modify a punch? Thanks!

[Trapaddict]

Those are some awesome looking rifle boolits! Those 5.7's are starting to become a little more plentiful too.

Jeff

[mckutzy]

This has been a quite a thread to read, glad to see. I hope this wasnt too much of a bump but it does pertain to this post...
BT Sniper- I have a question.. up north us folks dont have much of a supply of 5.7 cases like u guys do. Lately I was thinking about seeing all of these TV shows that like to use the FN P90 PDW, and thought about this thread, what about using the blanks cases to make ur jackets, they are the basically same case right?

[BT Sniper]

Yes the 5.7 are becoming avialble in more quanity latly.

Yes a blank brass case will make just as good of bullet as a live fired case would.

Yes I have 2 thousand of them annealed and ready to form into bullets

Yes ground squirrel season is only a month away out here

Even took a nice mule deer with this bullet two years ago. I expect many more positive range reports from these bullets.

Swage ON!

BT

[BT Sniper]

Should have new test results from custom BT Sniper dies soon. Maybe as soon as this weekend if it stops raining over here.

BTSniper

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I put this project on the back burner since I last played with these dies.
This was back in early Dec. 2010.
I wasn't happy with the size/shape of the swaged bullets from these CH dies
when attempting to get them as heavy as possible...150gr plus.

I discussed this with BT and we came to the conclusion that these
CH 308 dies were designed primarily for a projectile
for 30 carbine. I desided to try one more time with
a lighter bullet, around 120 gr.

Months ago, I modified a core mold
and cast 100+ pure lead cores at about 70gr.
and cut 100+ cases cut to 0.865"
then I annealed the cases in the wood stove,
then gave them a Citric acid bath.
--time passed and these cases and cores just sat on my workbench--

Finally, Yesterday...
I desided to get these done !!!
I sat down and started weighing the cores,
they averaged 71.5 gr.
Then I weighed the jackets,
they averaged 52.0 gr.
I matched cores to jackets for 123.5 gr ± 0.5gr
Then I pre-sized the jackets to 0.304 with my modified 280 FL size die,
then seated the cores in the CH seater die,
then swaged them as the final step in the swage die (point forming die).
the bullet body measures 0.3084
the rim expanded to the same.

most of the bullets had a little flashing around the flat point nose.
the jackets still had the satin look they get from the Citric acid bath,
So I desided to tumbled them for a few hours, mostly hoping
the flashing would disappear...luckily it did and polished the brass
to a beautiful shine.

I am happy with the results, but I don't have a
real need for a jacketed light 30 cal bullet.

I will be loading them for 30-06 soon
and will report the results from the range.
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Looks good there Jon. Great Pics and post. Yes I think the CH 308 die is best with bullets 150 grains and under and it is my conclusion too that CH designed this die for making smaller bullets suited for the small 30 and 32 cal pistols or carbines. These do look like pretty good little varmit bullets or great bullets for the smaller 30 cal rifles such as the 30-30s

What are you going to do when these bullets shoot under in 1" for you lol! They may actually shoot pretty good. I've found the brass jacketed bullets very capible of great accuracy once you find the right combination.

Good shooting.

BTSniper