Miss-fires from compressed charge?

[44man]

I cannot help but wonder if you have loaded these rounds with a rifle primer rather than that of a pistol. It will cause exactly as you have described.
I am sure all are aware a rifle primer has a thicker cup than that of a pistol. They are not interchangable.

The proper mainspring will fire a rifle primer, even the 23# standard in a single action.
Single actions made for a rifle primer will have a 28# spring.

[Bass Ackward]

My .44 mag compressed charges of H-110 gave me less than 50 fps extreme deviation out of a full string of shooting. I don't see how you could get much better than that.

One thing is for certain: If you ever bother to cut news print small enough for a pistol case, but large enough to cover the bottom so powder can not get under it and then go to all the trouble to put it inside and work it down to the bottom (PIA) so that it lays flat and you did this for handgun ammo for gosh sakes, ........... then I would say that someone MUST HAVE believed that they had a problem.

On the flip side, I guess that once you buy something, you gotta figure out how to make use of it. I do anyway.

[RICKLANDES]

I have tended to agree but have never proven it and I shot all winter in Ohio. But we didn't have 30 or more below zero.
I have shot in below zero but that is only Ohio weather.

In the past year Precision Shooting mag showed a series of primers being fired and the flash generated from each type. There were some very surprizing differences in the observable flashes produced. If memory serves those with the higher amount of flash tended to increase internal pressures above those with less flash. Intuitively, that stands to reason. They commented some on primer usage and sd variations. Nothing confirmed the mag primer in cooler temps hypothesis...that I can recall. (but then again I am unsure what was for breakfast this a.m.)

I have done this for years, but never tested standard vs mag in a cold temp over the chrony. I guess it is one of those things I have taken at face value. It does not confirm it as truth. I have hunted as cold as -17 below with a wind chill to the mid- minus 30's. I have not had a problem with things going bang when they were supposed to.

The odd thing is powder generally increases in pressure in warmth and cold with a "U" shaped pressure curve (all else consistent). It would almost stand to reason a cool and a warmer temp would merit a standard primer for pressure considerations and a mag in average temps. However, that would relate back to powder type.

I have shot 44's for a bit over 30 years in about a dozen differing pistols (and a few rifles). I cannot see that a magnum primer has ever had a negative impact on firing. Most problems have come in the form of light springs (even with some of the custom Redhawk coil spring kits) or poorly seated primers. I also have not seen where a standard primer was a plus.

I guess one would be advised to contact the manufacturer to see if the components that make a magnum primer differ from a standard or just have more of the ignition chemicals in the cup. I have no clue.

I have used in the main 110, 296, blue dot, lil' gun, 2400 even tried black powder once for fun. All went "bang".

I have to believe powder type will be a better guide to mag v reg when selecting a primer versus temp. even though I consistently use mag primers.

[44man]

In the past year Precision Shooting mag showed a series of primers being fired and the flash generated from each type. There were some very surprizing differences in the observable flashes produced. If memory serves those with the higher amount of flash tended to increase internal pressures above those with less flash. Intuitively, that stands to reason. They commented some on primer usage and sd variations. Nothing confirmed the mag primer in cooler temps hypothesis...that I can recall. (but then again I am unsure what was for breakfast this a.m.)

I have done this for years, but never tested standard vs mag in a cold temp over the chrony. I guess it is one of those things I have taken at face value. It does not confirm it as truth. I have hunted as cold as -17 below with a wind chill to the mid- minus 30's. I have not had a problem with things going bang when they were supposed to.

The odd thing is powder generally increases in pressure in warmth and cold with a "U" shaped pressure curve (all else consistent). It would almost stand to reason a cool and a warmer temp would merit a standard primer for pressure considerations and a mag in average temps. However, that would relate back to powder type.

I have shot 44's for a bit over 30 years in about a dozen differing pistols (and a few rifles). I cannot see that a magnum primer has ever had a negative impact on firing. Most problems have come in the form of light springs (even with some of the custom Redhawk coil spring kits) or poorly seated primers. I also have not seen where a standard primer was a plus.

I guess one would be advised to contact the manufacturer to see if the components that make a magnum primer differ from a standard or just have more of the ignition chemicals in the cup. I have no clue.

I have used in the main 110, 296, blue dot, lil' gun, 2400 even tried black powder once for fun. All went "bang".

I have to believe powder type will be a better guide to mag v reg when selecting a primer versus temp. even though I consistently use mag primers.

Every powder will change burn rates with temperature, some get faster when hot and some get faster when cold. It is out of our control.
Groups will change accordingly throughout the year.
But you confuse going "bang" with accuracy. All of my work is only for accuracy first. There are weather conditions where I have groups open and I am not about to work loads for every temperature.
However I have tested primers for years in cold and hot. In no test has the magnum primer shot better in the .44.
I shot these when it was below zero and even though my normal groups opened, the mag primer still did worse. I just do not know how to explain it better. Shooting the .44 since 1956 has given me the same results over and over. I have been through over a dozen .44's during the years and not a single one showed accuracy with a mag primer.
You have to define the gun going bang and hitting what you shoot at because there is a difference.

[44man]

Some would jump for joy with my 50 yard groups at 25 yards.
There are some fantastic shooters here and a lot of knowledge yet nobody has ever proven the mag primer in the .44 shoots better.
It is a simple matter to show what you do as you change components.
I go through at least a 5" thick stack of targets a year just testing.

[the_ursus]

Thanks for the insight guys, just a few comments.
I'm shooting a SRH with CCI LPM primers.
I don't use media for cleaning.
I do store my primers in the same cabinet as my cleaning supplies (no wd40 but hoppes)
Storage temp is 65
I've never adjusted the mainspring
Powder is fresh

I've never had a problem with misfires till now, but not really sure if it's a "problem", it could be just a couple of bad primers. I did have one CCI LP primer not ignite a couple days ago with a plinker charge. I took that primer out and smacked it with a hammer and still no bang, no mistery there anymore.

That same day, I put a dozen more of the offending loads I originally posted about through my SRH and they all did fine. I did decide to seat them out just a hair to reduce pressure on the powder.

Hopefully I didn't contaminate my primers with my cleaning supplies too nearby. I think I'd be sick...

[felix]

Do NOT store solvents next to primers, powder, etc. Don't even think about it. ... felix

[the_ursus]

Do NOT store solvents next to primers, powder, etc. Don't even think about it. ... felix

Primers were stored the next shelf up, well I know better now. Arrrgh.....

[RICKLANDES]

44 man...Sorry if I have created confusion...I was not addressing the accuracy issue with regard to the going "bang" comment. I just could not see how a compressed load of 110 would NOT go bang with regards to a compressed load. Compression increases the burn rate, not snuff the primers flash.

The accuracy you are seeking may well be better accross the board with a non mag primer...all most all benchrest shooters use a non-mag for their work if one follows the stats...BUT with regards to firing under a cold condition do you know if a magnum primer is a better choice?

I can deal with a given amount of accuracy reduction for the trade off of a must go bang under cold temps conditions as I am first and foremost a hunter. A 2" groups at 100 yards versus a 4 inch group will make little difference to the game I am after. Also, I am guessing that your best target loads are not the top velocity/energy loads. Again I am after top energy with accepatble accuracy for my purpose.

You shared the cool temps testing you have done. Could you give an estimate on what you might expect as a group change with just a primer change? I know that this is at best just for your pistols and a limited amt of testing under X conditions, but I for one would find it to be of interest.

I have found variations of powder load per pistol have had a larger impact than primers. Perhaps I shall have to build my best and then play with the primers.

I appreciate your sharing and insights.

[fredj338]

A mis-fire as in the primer fired but the pwoder did not or a mis fire where the primer never fired? In the later, it has nothing to do w/ a compresed load. I would suspect the primer or your gun. If it fired & the powder failed to ignite, maybe the primer, maybe not enough crimp? I have shot a lot of compressed H110/W296, the only issue I ever had were too light a powder charge & light crimp.

[lwknight]

Until recently , I never had a misfire except where it was obviously my fault with some crimped 30-06 cases. The last years primers seem to be different. Probably a lot of it has more to do with 24/7 production and less maintenance if production equipment.
Baf primers are not uncommon these days.
I find misfred factory ammo on the range quite often when I check the trash cans for brass.

The bottom line to my reply is to say that it makes no sense to think that a slightly compressed load has anything to do with the powder not lighting.

[the_ursus]

Roger that, compression means nothing in regards to ignition.

(got a first time miss-firerer here)

[44man]

44 man...Sorry if I have created confusion...I was not addressing the accuracy issue with regard to the going "bang" comment. I just could not see how a compressed load of 110 would NOT go bang with regards to a compressed load. Compression increases the burn rate, not snuff the primers flash.

The accuracy you are seeking may well be better accross the board with a non mag primer...all most all benchrest shooters use a non-mag for their work if one follows the stats...BUT with regards to firing under a cold condition do you know if a magnum primer is a better choice?

I can deal with a given amount of accuracy reduction for the trade off of a must go bang under cold temps conditions as I am first and foremost a hunter. A 2" groups at 100 yards versus a 4 inch group will make little difference to the game I am after. Also, I am guessing that your best target loads are not the top velocity/energy loads. Again I am after top energy with accepatble accuracy for my purpose.

You shared the cool temps testing you have done. Could you give an estimate on what you might expect as a group change with just a primer change? I know that this is at best just for your pistols and a limited amt of testing under X conditions, but I for one would find it to be of interest.

I have found variations of powder load per pistol have had a larger impact than primers. Perhaps I shall have to build my best and then play with the primers.

I appreciate your sharing and insights.

No problem because I CAN'T tell you where the magnum primer works better because of the cold.
I have worked charges from starting loads to over max with all primers and results through many, many years has always been the same. Magnum primers in the .44 have, on the average, tripled group sizes.
Back when there was only 2400, it did not seem as drastic but there was still a difference. But I was fat, dumb and happy then, not needing the accuracy for IHMSA that came later. That game turned revolver shooting on it's head for me.
I fell into the trap of loading manuals that said the .44 needed a mag primer. But groups were never what I needed so I started to do the work. That was all with jacketed bullets for IHMSA until later on. I shot cast before but thought jacketed was the way for long range. Not so, cast shoots as good or better.
I just hunt now but the thing is that the IHMSA experience never went away. It was the greatest revolver learning experience of my life and I will always be thankful for it. I will always be thankful for Elgin Gates, Blacky Sleeva, Terry Bradshaw and all the wonderful fellas. It just got too expensive and I had to drive too far.
I feel my job is to pass on some things just for all of you to try, but I get friction all the time. I don't ask for anything, just try.

[HeavyMetal]

Yep Hoppes, or any of the liquid or aresol, cleaners will migrate especially in an enclosed cabinet!

Time to change storage areas! I keep all cleaning stuff, gun or auto, in an outside cabinet under the covered back patio area.

Easy to do in So Cal only rains 6 times a year.

[RICKLANDES]

Thanks 44 man!