Water quenching boolits?

[pdawg_shooter]

I still don't get it....guess I never will.

The only valid reason for water dropping that I've heard is that it allows you to harden alloys that would otherwise be too soft for the application. As far as I'm concerned, the same thing can be accomplished with the proper alloy and you don't have to worry about hardness changing in the future.

It certainly can't be considered EASIER since you're adding several extra steps to a fairly simple process to make it more complicated.

I consider it the same as any other specilized or exotic method used to accomplish a specific task in the casting/reloading process. I can think of VERY few applications that can't be accomplished more conviently, more easily or more accurately with other methods.

Now, if you just like to do it that way, just say so. That's something I can understand, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that it's somehow a BETTER method.

Just my opinion, and you know what that's worth.

Jerry

+1 on what Jerry says. If I need a hard bullet I will adjust my alloy to get it. I paper patch ALL my rifle bullets so I match my hardness to the velocity to get performance on live meat.

[Char-Gar]

Chris... A couple of thoughs on your four targets

1. CZ makes many types of firearms. I ASSUME yours is a 9mm.

2. The four targets don't display a dramatic difference between the water quenched and the others. None of those targets are bragging targets unless they were shot at 100 yards or beyond.

3. What difference there is ,will probably be found in the rate of twist in the barrel. Most 9mm rifling twist are pretty quick.

[silverbuzzard]

BE CAREFUL ! one drop of water into a hot mold can ruin your day
That said, I have cast for 35 years and used a 5 gallon bucket with a large cotton rag in it and about 2/3 full water.
The rag slows the bullet and stops any deformation if they hit the side of bucket on way it

[Wayne S]

As I said earlier I make a trough and use that to carry the bullets into an icechest, I don't push my WW bullets over 1700 FPS [the new NOE 224-55 will be the exception] BUT I have a limited area for casting and use the trough to keep from droping hot bullets on top of other hot bullets

[gray wolf]

Originally Posted by chris in va
I'm new to casting. Can someone explain why my CZ likes the harder water quenched boolits as evidenced by these groups? Upper right and lower left are water dropped.

First lets clear this one up, this target shows me nothing, if it was shot at 7 to 10 yards all it says to me is you need a little more range time. Sorry for the comment but that's the way I see it.
Second this water drop thing? I don't shoot rifle so for my 45 acp water dropping
would do me as much good as having two heads. Just don't need it.
I think people get into habits and do things without knowing why they are doing it. especially some of the new to casting people. --He said,she said, we think possible, maybe, could be, and so on.
As far as a waste of time let me say
in my opinion it NOT a waste of time.
If you need to do it and you have looked at your situation and determined that
#1 you need a harder bullet.
#2 A harder bullet will improve your shooting.
# you are getting leading and have done all the other work and decided that your hardness is the reason.
#3 you need harder bullets and you can't afford another alloy or other metals are not available or not practical for you.
# 4 you are just to thick headed to take advice and insist on doing things your way, and could care less about what you are told, or to lazy to research the issue yourself.
these are just some of my observations on the matter.
To say it is foolish and a waste of time OR just go and get a different alloy is also foolish, and a little narrow minded .
There are people here that water drop there bullets and know exactly why they are doing it.
These are the people that have done there homework --they are the people I listen to. Not the people that do anything in life because --she said, he said bla, bla.
Let me get off this by saying if water dropping makes you feel good --do it--
if you want to try something different--do it-- if you think it will help --do it--
Please be careful if you do as been said water into lead is not good--lead into water is ok.
If you can't drop your bullets onto a cloth without denting them up or burn your fingers--take a look at your set up. dropping bullets on a soft surface and moving them around is casting 101.
Sorry for if I got of on a little rant but it's how I see it.
Happy day's to all and drinks all around.-------------------

[BABore]

Well said and much needed here abouts.

[Nrut]

To say it is foolish and a waste of time OR just go and get a different alloy is also foolish, and a little narrow minded .
There are people here that water drop there bullets and know exactly why they are doing it.
These are the people that have done there homework --they are the people I listen to. Not the people that do anything in life because --she said, he said bla, bla.

+1
Good post Grey Wolf.....

[DLCTEX]

It also needs to be said that a drop of water on top of the melt in the pot is not a certain visit from the tinsel fairy. It is something to be avoided, but don't get paranoid. The water has to be under the surface and a drop may even have to be trapped to cause an eruption. When I water drop it is done with a five gallon bucket almost full sitting on the floor and my bench is 36" high. For my 45 ACP water dropping seems to make little difference in accuracy or leading with my loads. For 38 Spc. the boolits need to be air cooled 50/50 (read softer) for good accuracy with my gun and loads. Water dropping is a way to get harder boolits from ww metal and is a useful tool that works in some guns/loads/situations. The experimenting and testing is a large portion of the pleasure derived from this wonderful pastime for me.

[insanelupus]

There is another reason for water quenching. Like other said, it's a tool. A tool I plan to try and use this year for the first time. In theory, it should work and I know others on here have done so with good results.

Water quenching WWs and then softening the nose (by standing them in water and using a torch until they just start to change color) is a quick and easy way (comparitively speaking) to end up with a softpoint type bullet for rifles and hunting purposes.

True, I could try different alloys, pouring different alloys in two pours, etc. However, there is no appreciable difference between the softened noses and the bullets which haven't been softened. So one can develop a hunitng load with the water quenched bullets which can allow a higher velocity and get the accuracy that he/she wants. In turn, once that load has been developed, for hunting you don't typically need lots of bullets, so they can be nose softened and loaded for hunting (after doing a final double check that the loads with the softned noses do indeed shoot where you want them).

For me an easier method (again, in theory as I haven't tried it yet) for an end result.

Even if I don't end up using this method in the end, there are times you may not use a tool much, but occasionally find it a vital part of a project.

[Char-Gar]

Now this reminds me of old times here on this board. Eight or ten years back we had the "filler war", where the folks lined up on whether or not to use filler and if so, what filler was best. Nothing was resolved and the war petered out after a couple of years and nobody was ever convinced of the error of their way.

We now seem to be in the water drop war, that crops up from time to fime. What makes it a war instead of a discussion are such terms as "foolish", "waste of time", etc. etc.

I am not a water droper, and see no need for it in my casting for either handgun or rifle. I get good results with no water. Yes, I have tried it and found it cured nothing and introduced problems into my casting world. IMHO it is a solution to a non-existant problem. I have no problems with the "dropers" but when a newbi says, that it seems to be the way to go, it is time to run up the big WHOA flag.

Anyway.. let the good times roll! This place feels like home again. Maybe we can rekindle the filler wars again! There are lots of new folks here who have not learned such things produce lots of heat, but no light.

[gray wolf]

I don't think it's a-kin to a war, at all.
In the end --them that will learn will learn-- and them that won't--well they just won't.
I agree that certain words are a little hard to take--like never--and always--
Just don't listen to them. Many times new casters or re loaders get started and think everything they do or come across is the best since 5 cent candy. If they grow with the sport
they soon find out that what was the best yesterday may not be so good tomorrow.
Hopefully we grow and learn. If some people wish to stay with there feet stuck in mud
so be it. We have no right to force anyone--only to try and guide folks and keep them safe.
I hate pissing wars and I don't have a dog in this fight. So I guess I have said enough.

[Gelandangan]

I am sitting on the fence and waiting to see if some argument can sway me either way.

[canyon-ghost]

The #1 fact here is that water quenching is a tool. I agree with Sheepdog on Chris in VA's CZ, there's possibly more powder behind the bullet than the WW holds together for. At the other end of the spectrum, you could use soft lead and keep it below 900 fps or so.

I use water quenching for the 7mmTCU (in the avatar) because, it's launched to 200 yards with a lead bullet. Chris in VA, it shoots like your targets out there at 200 yards. From that, you can guess I'm pushing it at greater than 1900fps. At the same time, my 22 Hornet pistol (same length barrel) only shoots to 100 meters. I use air cooled lead in it. It shoots very flat to 100 meters at somewhere around 1800 fps.

Water quenching makes wheelweight lead come from 7-9 bhn to way over 15bhn, it is dramatically harder. It's also easier to use than linotype, I have that too. I prefer to set the 5gal. bucket two steps behind me from the casting pot. The lead has to cool that long anyway and I see no reason to get cold water and hot lead near each other. Water quenching in more a hardening tool for high-velocity lead rifle bullets than pistol uses. If it weren't for the one wildcat in my pistol barrels, and now a 41 Mag, I could use air-cooled wheelweight for about anything. The 41 Magnum is new, remains to be tested with air-cooled so, I'll just let that one go for now. I shoot 32-20, 9mm, 32 mag, and 22 hornet all with air-cooled but, there is more to follow yet.

[BD]

OK, here's my argument: For the vast bulk of my reloading I make alloy about once every other year or so. I make WW + 2% tin in 200 pound lots, typically 600 pounds or so at a time. Takes all afternoon. This alloy "air cooled" handles just about 90% of what I shoot by weight; light .44, 45 acp and .38 spec. Most of the other 10% I can handle with water quenched WW; hot .44 mag, slow 6.5 x 55 and .450 Bushmaster, (so far). Anything else, less than 1% of what I shoot, I will make alloy for.
This does not include time consuming experiment stuff, like soft noses or HP's.

For the last 15 years I've water dropped the 10% needed by spinning in my junk yard office chair and opening the mold into a five gallon bucket with a small sponge floating submerged near the top. I hit it every time, the boolits then fall to the bottom. At the end of the casting I roll up my sleeves and pull them out, 100 or 200 or 300, whatever. This saves me a whole weekend of making up a slightly harder alloy. I load to shoot. What do you load for?

That's what water dropping is about.

BD

[BD]

"The only valid reason for water dropping that I've heard is that it allows you to harden alloys that would otherwise be too soft for the application"

That pretty much says it all.

BD

[BLTsandwedge]

There are none so wise or so vigilant as to be immune from tinsel fairy's visit.

I'm a water dropper. It raises 19/1 WW/Sn from 10-12BhN to 17-18BhN. It makes for slightly better groups from MY 610, Python and 629. As I run two moulds at a time (from Lyman 4-packs to H&G six-holers) everything gets dropped. It helps with .40 and 10MM and doesn't hurt .32s through .45s. A nice feature water dropping offers- I can grab a newly minted projectile and examine it closely right away- as in using reading glasses- without wearing gloves. Obviously you can do the same with a hot boolit without skin contact, but I prefer the former. Sooooo....do what is best for you. Experiment to find out what works for your given set of circumstances. That's what this is all about, no?

[shootinxd]

I am going to try 100 of each in my 40cal.I'd like that super sized please.Just kidding.

[RSOJim]

What Nrut said, #27 post. I could have not said it better myself.

[ebg3]

I don't see a reason for a war or debate. Just try it both ways and see what works best for you.
EG

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive fooled with it some through the years and used to preach it was a waste of time for the most part. Lately though ive had a hard time finding cheap linotype and my supply is down to about 500 lbs and i know that down the line im going to need to water drop to get the hardness i need. Even when i preached against it i did admit that it can effect accuracy. It can effect it in a good way or bad. What it really is to someone who is very anal in finding the absoulute best accuracy in a particular gun is another thing to try. It will effect accuracy as much as trying anothter powder or primer. Its far from stupid and its far from dangerous unless your an idiot. As to what i use it use a 5 gallon pail. I do most of my casting in the winter and boys we have SNOW up to the gazoos up here so i take my bucket and scoop a layer of snow on top. It cusions the bullets, prevents splash and id guess the add coldness of the water adds to the hardness a bit.