Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[StarMetal]

Larry,

What I said about the PMC brass was that it was too bad they didn't have thicker necks on them because I think the brass is really dynamite brass....that is good brass. More then likely it would perform very well with jacketed loads.

You said this about the 06 cases: I am running right at .006 clearence with a .266 bullet. I have never found a lot of '06 cases including milsurp cases that are thick enough to give a .001 clearence. 45.2.1 and my self haven't had any problems finding 06 brass thick enough to use. I will say 45 2.1 has his opinion of what head stamp to go for and I have mine. I can also state that commercial 06 brass is barely any better then most the too thin necked factory 6.5 Swede out and and including factory 6.5MS. Also if the MexSwede barrels neck chamber only allows you to use the bullet size you did and if the bore and groove are normal otherwise....I'm not sure you will achieve what we're trying to do here. It wasn't until I started shooting .268 bullets that things came together for me.

Question: Is your M38 scoped? I ask because if you can shoot a one hole group with original iron sights at HV you're pretty good. If not what group standard should we set for your M38.

[felix]

Larry, also consider that your alox lube has too much viscosity for the throat area. Consider thinning it down when you get three good shots and the latter two open the group beyond a called "spec". ... felix

[StarMetal]

Larry, also consider that your alox lube has too much viscosity for the throat area. Consider thinning it down when you get three good shots and the latter two open the group beyond a called "spec". ... felix

Felix,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Larry said he used LBT Blue Soft for the lube in this particular testing.

Joe

[geargnasher]

I just went and checked my M70 Classic .30-'06 chamber dimensions with an impact slug and I found my cases have about .005" combined clearance (.0025" radius) even with the oversized (.310") boolits I have been using. Pulled boolits still @ .310". This gun shoots an honest 2" at 100 yards at ~2700 fps, often much smaller but I won't claim "average", I figure a gun is only as accurate as the largest group it shoots with a given load.

I want to narrow down, for my own testing and the testing of others, what the particular obstacles are with shooting cast in a Military Swedish Mauser accurately and fast. It has been said that it is possible to shoot ~130 Gr. boolits at at least 2300 fps into an inch at 100 yards. I think that is pretty good for ANY caliber with cast, but I don't see what in particular is the holdup with the Swede. I KNOW there is an obstacle, I can't even come close to that yet, most of my "patterns" have been just that, sprinkle the 8-1/2"X11" target with holes. WHY is this one so different?

Based upon past reading, here are a few, not all I'm sure, mentioned obstacles:

>>Military Swedish Mausers usually have oversized chamber necks and extremely long throats, necessitating the use of specially formed cases and carefully fit, often custom-designed, boolits. Why is the chamber neck so critical? Not so much with other calibers, why does a few thousandths make accuracy go from minute of backstop to minute of angle? It doesn't in other guns, it only makes an inch or two difference at most. There must be more to it than that.

>> State of anneal. I know case neck tension and consistency of that tension is an accuracy key. Again, in my experience it has only meant a difference of an inch or two at most in group size, not whether you hit the target paper or not. There MUST be more to it than that.

>>Twist rate. The Military Swedes have a fast twist and deep rifling. So what. If I can get to 2700 accurately with no real special loading techniques or especially well-fitting brass and a 1:10 why can't I get that with a Swede at, say 2150? There is obviously more going on than the twist rate or RPM threshold.

>>Powder burn rate. People have been experimenting for years with this in great detail. Most of us can assume that what works for one gun won't work for another exactly the same way, so that will probably remain a variable unique unto each particular gun, but we should be in at least a certain ballpark for certain velocities with particular alloys and particular velocity ranges. I can tell one thing from what others have posted and my own experimentation, there is no best powder for the Swede.

>>Fillers. Now that changes everything, especially powder selection and pressures. Why does it affect accuracy so much? We've seen consistent ignition and low ES with some of Larry's first test results, and accuracy was still terrible. So it stands to reason that the filler really is doing more with "cushion" and "protection" as well as aiding clean, straight muzzle exit. I think we can safely say that fillers are doing more than "bridging the neck" to get good, even ignition and consistent pressure build. If that were the case, any filler would do.

>>Crimp. I've found with other calibers crimp won't substitute for neck tension much. Most of the time I delete crimping entirely for this reason. I don't know for sure what works best here with the Swede, but I can see using tight, hard case necks and a bridging filler may give good consistency at launch with minimal or no crimp. I've seen at least one reference to .0015" interference fit or "neck tension" and many references to "standard benchrest loading practices" which fall pretty close to that. Again, I don't see that it matters 12" or better in group size no matter what crimp you use.

>>Lube. I have pushed some lubes to the point of failure. Very few good lubes I know of will fail to perform at 2000-2500 fps, which I believe is the realistic window here. I don't believe that lube alone will get groups from a foot to an inch.

>>Alloy. Seems to be straightforward. Use a tough, springy but not too hard alloy. This can be achieved by using a fairly low-Sb alloy and heat treating or "water dropping" it to get hardness with a tough, springy and resilient nature. Fairly generous leeway here.

>>Gas checks. No one here can convince me easily that material, style, or brand will make that much difference.

>>Chamber dimensions. I think Felix explained that quite well above, and I agree with him.

So what are we REALLY up against here? Is it just a matter of "tolerance stacking" with each variable being mysteriously magnified? WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING?

It just doesn't compute.

Larry, I'm sure you have your own stepladder algorithm to working this out, I'm wondering if you have comment or anything to add to the above.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

You said this about the 06 cases: I am running right at .006 clearence with a .266 bullet. I have never found a lot of '06 cases including milsurp cases that are thick enough to give a .001 clearence.

That is with most formed '06 cases that have been trued to even concentricity. As I explained I am using the U 42 cases which are thick enough. I believe you only mentioned one lot of '53 '06 cases but all this is beside the point. The point I was making to every one is that many '06 cases won't do and it takes some doing to find some that will. I don't know why I am even discussing this further. If you go to my article in CASTPIC on the 6.5 Swede you will see i explain that forming cases with '06 brass was necessary along with the minimal clearence. That was posted well before 45 2.1 and you started this subject. Of course when I posted it my "technique" was all wrong according to 45 2.1 and you. Now we have flip flopped as usual. Oh well....

45.2.1 and my self haven't had any problems finding 06 brass thick enough to use. I will say 45 2.1 has his opinion of what head stamp to go for and I have mine. I can also state that commercial 06 brass is barely any better then most the too thin necked factory 6.5 Swede out and and including factory 6.5MS. Also if the MexSwede barrels neck chamber only allows you to use the bullet size you did and if the bore and groove are normal otherwise....I'm not sure you will achieve what we're trying to do here. I'm beginning to find the maximum effective range of your excuses for what I haven't done or not done yet to be zero meters It wasn't until I started shooting .268 bullets that things came together for me.

Question: Is your M38 scoped? I ask because if you can shoot a one hole group with original iron sights at HV you're pretty good. If not what group standard should we set for your M38.

Yes it is scoped. It has a 2X Leupold Scout on it now but it is also D&T'd for a regular scope with the bolt handle already forged. I can mount any number of target/varmint scopes of 6 to 24X on it, do you have a preference?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I just went and checked my M70 Classic .30-'06 chamber dimensions with an impact slug and I found my cases have about .005" combined clearance (.0025" radius) even with the oversized (.310") boolits I have been using. Pulled boolits still @ .310". This gun shoots an honest 2" at 100 yards at ~2700 fps, often much smaller but I won't claim "average", I figure a gun is only as accurate as the largest group it shoots with a given load.

I want to narrow down, for my own testing and the testing of others, what the particular obstacles are with shooting cast in a Military Swedish Mauser accurately and fast. It has been said that it is possible to shoot ~130 Gr. boolits at at least 2300 fps into an inch at 100 yards. I think that is pretty good for ANY caliber with cast, but I don't see what in particular is the holdup with the Swede. I KNOW there is an obstacle, I can't even come close to that yet, most of my "patterns" have been just that, sprinkle the 8-1/2"X11" target with holes. WHY is this one so different?

Based upon past reading, here are a few, not all I'm sure, mentioned obstacles:

>>Military Swedish Mausers usually have oversized chamber necks and extremely long throats, necessitating the use of specially formed cases and carefully fit, often custom-designed, boolits. Why is the chamber neck so critical? Not so much with other calibers, why does a few thousandths make accuracy go from minute of backstop to minute of angle? It doesn't in other guns, it only makes an inch or two difference at most. There must be more to it than that.

>> State of anneal. I know case neck tension and consistency of that tension is an accuracy key. Again, in my experience it has only meant a difference of an inch or two at most in group size, not whether you hit the target paper or not. There MUST be more to it than that.

>>Twist rate. The Military Swedes have a fast twist and deep rifling. So what. If I can get to 2700 accurately with no real special loading techniques or especially well-fitting brass and a 1:10 why can't I get that with a Swede at, say 2150? There is obviously more going on than the twist rate or RPM threshold.

>>Powder burn rate. People have been experimenting for years with this in great detail. Most of us can assume that what works for one gun won't work for another exactly the same way, so that will probably remain a variable unique unto each particular gun, but we should be in at least a certain ballpark for certain velocities with particular alloys and particular velocity ranges. I can tell one thing from what others have posted and my own experimentation, there is no best powder for the Swede.

>>Fillers. Now that changes everything, especially powder selection and pressures. Why does it affect accuracy so much? We've seen consistent ignition and low ES with some of Larry's first test results, and accuracy was still terrible. So it stands to reason that the filler really is doing more with "cushion" and "protection" as well as aiding clean, straight muzzle exit. I think we can safely say that fillers are doing more than "bridging the neck" to get good, even ignition and consistent pressure build. If that were the case, any filler would do.

>>Crimp. I've found with other calibers crimp won't substitute for neck tension much. Most of the time I delete crimping entirely for this reason. I don't know for sure what works best here with the Swede, but I can see using tight, hard case necks and a bridging filler may give good consistency at launch with minimal or no crimp. I've seen at least one reference to .0015" interference fit or "neck tension" and many references to "standard benchrest loading practices" which fall pretty close to that. Again, I don't see that it matters 12" or better in group size no matter what crimp you use.

>>Lube. I have pushed some lubes to the point of failure. Very few good lubes I know of will fail to perform at 2000-2500 fps, which I believe is the realistic window here. I don't believe that lube alone will get groups from a foot to an inch.

>>Alloy. Seems to be straightforward. Use a tough, springy but not too hard alloy. This can be achieved by using a fairly low-Sb alloy and heat treating or "water dropping" it to get hardness with a tough, springy and resilient nature. Fairly generous leeway here.

>>Gas checks. No one here can convince me easily that material, style, or brand will make that much difference.

>>Chamber dimensions. I think Felix explained that quite well above, and I agree with him.

So what are we REALLY up against here? Is it just a matter of "tolerance stacking" with each variable being mysteriously magnified? WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING?

It just doesn't compute.

Larry, I'm sure you have your own stepladder algorithm to working this out, I'm wondering if you have comment or anything to add to the above.

Gear

The Swede deep rifling in hard on a cast bullet. For one thing the deeper rifling is harder for the bullet to fill out the grooves evenly and yet keep the axis of the bullet centered. We know the fast twist puts additional strain on the cast bullet.

It's not quite right to say the Swedes have oversized chambers...oversized in comparison to what? A modern rifle? Don't forget they didn't have those when the Swede was designed. They were designed for military use. The reason for the thicker case necks are to more center the bullet with the bore. So why not use the thickest you can tailor to what you want? You can do this with you modern 06 too ya know.

So coupled with the so called oversized chambers, the deep fast twist rifling you can see why you want to have the bullet centered to the bore as much as possible and that brings us to launch. You want to be able to launch that bullet as gentle as possible and remember too that the launch can also cause a bullet to go off center....thus the reason for the buffer. It has the ability to aid those two things.

The long throat was for the original long bullet. I think the term custom bullet mold is more close to saying one that drops a bullet fat enough for use in the Swede. Many of them already fit the throat length. For example the 266469 is long enough and the older molds use to drop bullets fat enough too.

The 6.5MS has many of the same attributes as the Swede. Mine only has the chamber as the bore and groove are modern.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, also consider that your alox lube has too much viscosity for the throat area. Consider thinning it down when you get three good shots and the latter two open the group beyond a called "spec". ... felix

Felix

I was using LBT Blue Soft lube for the test because that is the lube 45 2.1 had on the bullets that starmetal shot those first 5 groups with at 2200+ fps. Quite frankly in all of my tests I've not found the LBT lube to be any better than several others with HV loads. But LBT was what joe used so I used it.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Felix

I was using LBT Blue Soft lube for the test because that is the lube 45 2.1 had on the bullets that starmetal shot those first 5 groups with at 2200+ fps. Quite frankly in all of my tests I've not found the LBT lube to be any better than several others with HV loads. But LBT was what joe used so I used it.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I believe the 6.5MS groups were at 2300+ not 2200. The Swede loads were at 2200+.

I too didn't think the LBT Blue was so good until I used it as I was told....and that was shoot a lot to season the barrel, at which it came into it's own. It is dang good lube. 357maximum's one goal was to make a lube as good or beat LBT, which we believe he may have done. When I finally got the Swede I had already made my soap lube. I think it's the equal of LBT. I retested the 6.5MS with the soap lube and it shot the same and same groups as with the LBT lube.

Joe

[geargnasher]

The Swede deep rifling in hard on a cast bullet. For one thing the deeper rifling is harder for the bullet to fill out the grooves evenly and yet keep the axis of the bullet centered. We know the fast twist puts additional strain on the cast bullet. I know it does. Notice I said the .30-'06 shoots well with 1:10 at 2700, but the Swede won't at 2150. Any "strain" from the faster twist should be negated by the slower velocities I mentioned.

It's not quite right to say the Swedes have oversized chambers...oversized in comparison to what? You're right in a general way. I meant chamber neck.A modern rifle? Don't forget they didn't have those when the Swede was designed. They were designed for military use. The reason for the thicker case necks are to more center the bullet with the bore. So why not use the thickest you can tailor to what you want? You can do this with you modern 06 too ya know. Joe, I understood all that many years ago, even before I owned a Swede. Question remains: If Larry reduced his neck clearance to .001" and increased his neck tension to .0015" would he suddenly be shooting "bugholes"? I seriously doubt it.

So coupled with the so called oversized chambers, the deep fast twist rifling you can see why you want to have the bullet centered to the bore as much as possible and that brings us to launch. That is very clear, and has been.You want to be able to launch that bullet as gentle as possible and remember too that the launch can also cause a bullet to go off center....thus the reason for the buffer. No doubt. But will only one specific type of buffer work? Larry's first test should have seen better accuracy results if that is the whole story with fillers It has the ability to aid those two things.

The long throat was for the original long bullet. I think the term custom bullet mold is more close to saying one that drops a bullet fat enough for use in the Swede. ...and ONLY the Swede. Thus the term "custom".Many of them already fit the throat length. For example the 266469 is long enough and the older molds use to drop bullets fat enough too.

The 6.5MS has many of the same attributes as the Swede. Mine only has the chamber as the bore and groove are modern. so what does it take to make itshoot?

Joe

Still no real answers.

Gear

[45 2.1]

Felix

I was using LBT Blue Soft lube for the test because that is the lube 45 2.1 had on the bullets that starmetal shot those first 5 groups with at 2200+ fps. Quite frankly in all of my tests I've not found the LBT lube to be any better than several others with HV loads. But LBT was what joe used so I used it.

Larry Gibson

Lets see now, Larry is not quite correct with a lot of things here. I'll make it simple for him where he doesn't have to do a lot of tests. Everybody here is interested in the "pressure curve and velocity" of the load that gave Joe 1/2 MOA groups in a stock Swede action, stock and barrel as the Swedish armorers put on the armory racks ready for service by their countrymen. Thats what everybody else here has, not your home gunsmithed parts gun. Joe put on a scope where he could see what he was aiming at. You are allowed the same privilage as long as you do not change the original bedding or anything the Swede armorers did. Everybody here wants to see the results from a stock Swede.

Joe shot the 6.5 Kurtz boolit in that test series, which by the way were sent as cast with no sizing, gas checks or lube on them. He did shoot a 6.5 cruise missle 1/2" group with boolits that were cast, sized, gas checked and lubed by me. So it seems you need to shoot either the 6.5 Kurtz group buy boolit or the cruise missle boolit and none other. BRP will be producing the 6.5 Kurtz boolit to original spec and possibly the cruise missle also. Your details on most of what you wrote above are wrong.

Your job here is to duplicate Joes 4350 load (about 30 to 31 gr. thereof for the 6.5 Kurtz boolit, should you choose the cruise missle then have Joe post his load data) with the correct case fit, neck clearance of 0.001" total with military brass and the right filler used as noted in the original instructions. You will have to match his accuracy also, because unless it is accurate the load isn't correct. I want to see you shoot the same series Joe did, 4 five shot groups with accuracy of 1 MOA or less to prove you got it, then you can do the pressure tests on that load.

Do You think that you can do that?

If you can't then tell use and admit you can't. An answer that evades the guidelines here will be considered as proof you do not intend to help solve the pressure curve information everyone wants on that load. Just the basic load...get it? No excess verbage to make you seem to look good either, just plain facts and group posts without adornment. Everybody here can decide for theirselves without your help then.

For the record, I do crimp slightly and try not to anneal. I like very hard case necks in this caliber and will slightly draw an old lot of cases when necks start cracking.

[StarMetal]

Still no real answers.

Gear

It's been noted here how to do it. 6.5 Kurtz bullet, sized .268, fired from the prepared 06 case, with the given shot shell buffer. I gave the powders and loads I used. I gave the lubes and I mentioned I crimp them.

By the way Javelina beeswax/alox lube is good in that velocity range you gave from 2000 to 24-2500 fps that you mentioned lubes handling. My lube has gone over 2700 fps in my 7mm08 which has a faster twist then your 06.

Larry,

I want to clarify on that .001 tolerance on my case necks. That's the diameter clearance...by that I mean the clearance is .0005 around the case and mesured diameter wise two .0005's equal .001 clearance. Don't feel bad, 45 2.1 shoot even tighter clearance then that.

Joe

[felix]

You can shoot a zero clearance round provided there is no boolit expansion within the case neck. That is obvious, isn't? Fillers, slow powder, soft primer, hard boolit all go together for this application. The real question is, is that amount of tight control necessary for the accuracy required? I don't know, and I hope not because of lot to lot variances of the components, especially with a softer boolit. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

I believe the 6.5MS groups were at 2300+ not 2200. The Swede loads were at 2200+.

I too didn't think the LBT Blue was so good until I used it as I was told....and that was shoot a lot to season the barrel, at which it came into it's own. It is dang good lube. 357maximum's one goal was to make a lube as good or beat LBT, which we believe he may have done. When I finally got the Swede I had already made my soap lube. I think it's the equal of LBT. I retested the 6.5MS with the soap lube and it shot the same and same groups as with the LBT lube.

Joe

Well the challenge was with 6.5 Swede. I have shot LBT Blue Soft in several other rifles. One I let "season" for 100 rounds and accuracy got no better. If I have to fire several hundred rounds to "season" a bore for one decent group then forget it. The good group was probably just a random one anyway.

I recieved a PM and was asked this;

"My question is why not ask them to provide you with 10 of their cartridges. Seems to me as bad or as good a rifle you have your documented results should be close to what they claim.

So I am asking you just that Joe, why not send me 10 of your 6.5 Swede cartridges plus however many foulers you think I will need to "season" the barrel. I am sure one of my rilfes will chamber them and I can attach a strain gauge to any of them. I will gladly pay for the shipping both ways (I'll return the cartridge cases). That way I can test the pressure, the velocity and the accuracy of your loads. If you think that won't work in my rifle then I'll make arrangements through an FFL and pay for your rifle to be shipped both ways. I can then attach the strain gauge to your rifle and make the tests. How about it?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

You can shoot a zero clearance round provided there is no boolit expansion within the case neck. That is obvious, isn't? Fillers, slow powder, soft primer, hard boolit all go together for this application. The real question is, is that amount of tight control necessary for the accuracy required? I don't know, and I hope not because of lot to lot variances of the components, especially with a softer boolit. ... felix

Felix,

I already posted something to effect you are asking. Changing nothing else but the brass case the accuracy went south from the bug hole. That is using PMC, Norma, and commercial 06 (which by the way in some instances was thicker necked then the Swede or MS factory brass) the accuracy suffered. So apparently it has lots to do with the Swede and MS.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Well the challenge was with 6.5 Swede. I have shot LBT Blue Soft in several other rifles. One I let "season" for 100 rounds and accuracy got no better. If I have to fire several hundred rounds to "season" a bore for one decent group then forget it. The good group was probably just a random one anyway.

I recieved a PM and was asked this;

"My question is why not ask them to provide you with 10 of their cartridges. Seems to me as bad or as good a rifle you have your documented results should be close to what they claim.

So I am asking you just that Joe, why not send me 10 of your 6.5 Swede cartridges plus however many foulers you think I will need to "season" the barrel. I am sure one of my rilfes will chamber them and I can attach a strain gauge to any of them. I will gladly pay for the shipping both ways (I'll return the cartridge cases). That way I can test the pressure, the velocity and the accuracy of your loads. If you think that won't work in my rifle then I'll make arrangements through an FFL and pay for your rifle to be shipped both ways. I can then attach the strain gauge to your rifle and make the tests. How about it?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Well Larry,

Why don't I just sent my rifle and my loaded ammo (separate package of course) and you can shoot the bug holes. Is that the way you want it to go down? You throwing in the towel already?

While I have your attention here you had posted else where in this thread about 45 2.1 not getting on my about shooting those good groups with my 6.5MS, but yet telling you to use a Swede. Unknown to you and others I got told that every phone conversation with 45 2.1 "...but Joe it's not a Swede". Why you think I bought a Swede?

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Joe shot the 6.5 Kurtz boolit in that test series, which by the way were sent as cast with no sizing, gas checks or lube on them. He did shoot a 6.5 cruise missle 1/2" group with boolits that were cast, sized, gas checked and lubed by me. So it seems you need to shoot either the 6.5 Kurtz group buy boolit or the cruise missle boolit and none other. BRP will be producing the 6.5 Kurtz boolit to original spec and possibly the cruise missle also. Your details on most of what you wrote above are wrong.

My post was based on joe's post and the picture he posted in one of the other threads. If it is wrong then so be it.

Your job here is to duplicate Joes 4350 load (about 30 to 31 gr. thereof for the 6.5 Kurtz boolit, should you choose the cruise missle then have Joe post his load data) with the correct case fit, neck clearance of 0.001" total with military brass and the right filler used as noted in the original instructions. You will have to match his accuracy also, because unless it is accurate the load isn't correct. I want to see you shoot the same series Joe did, 4 five shot groups with accuracy of 1 MOA or less to prove you got it, then you can do the pressure tests on that load.


Do You think that you can do that?


I do not have the Cruise or KURTZ moulds. I will gladly test them if you would be so kind as to send some, I will pay shipping if necessary. However, Joe is making claims that he does it with many different cast bullets including those with bore riding noses. Is there a particular reason that 266455 won't suffice?

If you can't then tell use and admit you can't. An answer that evades the guidelines here will be considered as proof you do not intend to help solve the pressure curve information everyone wants on that load. Just the basic load...get it? No excess verbage to make you seem to look good either, just plain facts and group posts without adornment. Everybody here can decide for theirselves without your help then.

You can rest assured that at the end of the tests I will either have done it or not have done it. I am posting all the facts good or bad without adornment or mystery. I could post the 4 to 12" groups but what would you then say? Probably not to post them.



For the record, I do crimp slightly and try not to anneal. I like very hard case necks in this caliber and will slightly draw an old lot of cases when necks start cracking.[/QUOTE]


Thank you for that bit of useful information.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Well Larry,

Why don't I just sent my rifle and my loaded ammo (separate package of course) and you can shoot the bug holes. Is that the way you want it to go down?

I will get a copy of the FFL for you to ship the rifle to. PM me your address. You can ship the ammo direct to me.

You throwing in the towel already?

Not at all becuase I still want to duplicate the velocity and accuracy in my own rifles.

While I have your attention here you had posted else where in this thread about 45 2.1 not getting on my about shooting those good groups with my 6.5MS, but yet telling you to use a Swede. Unknown to you and others I got told that every phone conversation with 45 2.1 "...but Joe it's not a Swede". Why you think I bought a Swede?

I believe that was the point.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

45 2.1

Joe shot the 6.5 Kurtz boolit in that test series, which by the way were sent as cast with no sizing, gas checks or lube on them. He did shoot a 6.5 cruise missle 1/2" group with boolits that were cast, sized, gas checked and lubed by me. So it seems you need to shoot either the 6.5 Kurtz group buy boolit or the cruise missle boolit and none other. BRP will be producing the 6.5 Kurtz boolit to original spec and possibly the cruise missle also. Your details on most of what you wrote above are wrong.

My post was based on joe's post and the picture he posted in one of the other threads. If it is wrong then so be it.

Your job here is to duplicate Joes 4350 load (about 30 to 31 gr. thereof for the 6.5 Kurtz boolit, should you choose the cruise missle then have Joe post his load data) with the correct case fit, neck clearance of 0.001" total with military brass and the right filler used as noted in the original instructions. You will have to match his accuracy also, because unless it is accurate the load isn't correct. I want to see you shoot the same series Joe did, 4 five shot groups with accuracy of 1 MOA or less to prove you got it, then you can do the pressure tests on that load.


Do You think that you can do that?


I do not have the Cruise or KURTZ moulds. I will gladly test them if you would be so kind as to send some, I will pay shipping if necessary. However, Joe is making claims that he does it with many different cast bullets including those with bore riding noses. Is there a particular reason that 266455 won't suffice?

If you can't then tell use and admit you can't. An answer that evades the guidelines here will be considered as proof you do not intend to help solve the pressure curve information everyone wants on that load. Just the basic load...get it? No excess verbage to make you seem to look good either, just plain facts and group posts without adornment. Everybody here can decide for theirselves without your help then.

You can rest assured that at the end of the tests I will either have done it or not have done it. I am posting all the facts good or bad without adornment or mystery. I could post the 4 to 12" groups but what would you then say? Probably not to post them.



For the record, I do crimp slightly and try not to anneal. I like very hard case necks in this caliber and will slightly draw an old lot of cases when necks start cracking.

Thank you for that bit of useful information.

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]

The various bullets out both 6.5's (not the Grendel) are Kurtz, the
Cruise Missile, and two other bullets 45 2.1 sent me that are of Lyman molds. The other two, although shot decent groups that many here would be happy with, I was not.

Now as for the Grendel you all know it shoots the 140 grain Saeco excellent. I have also shot the Kurtz from it along with the one other Lyman bullet 45 2.1 sent. You fellows have to remember I wasn't into the 6.5 rifles thus the reason for borrowing bullets.

Now back to the Grendel. Because the AR15 Grendel chamber has only about 1/16th inch freebore I had to use the Saecon bore rider. But in order to use the Kurtz and the other Lyman bullet I made a sizer that sized a portion of the first part of the bullets (the noses) to my exact bore diameter. This gizmo mounted on my Lyman 450. The very first shots fired with the Kurtz thus modified out of the AR15 was stepping outside my shop door and firing off hand at one of my no trespassing signs near the creek running through my property which was 75 yards away and it cut a ragged 3/4 inch group. So did the other Lyman bullet. Then I bought the Saeco and it was just cast it, size it, load it, shoot it...so I use it exclusively.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Now the initial intent of this thread was how I was impressed at how hard my Kurtz hit that jug of water at 300 yards. Then it turned into a tell us how to load for the Swede at HV. Now that you all have been told the belly aching hasn't stopped. My God, someone pm's Larry and wants me to sent him my ammo. When is it all going to stop?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

On that LBT. Sometimes it takes as many shots you used and more to where the stuff starts really working. Ask BaBore how I hounded him with the exact same statements you're giving me about it. It does work and once you get it going you don't clean your barrel. It shoots for a very long time.

Joe