480 Ruger loading questions

[Vance in Ak]

Questions for the experienced...
Several questions actually.
#1 Lil Gun vs H-110
Is there a difference in the sharpness of the recoil produced by these two powders if the bullet weight & velocity are the same (does that have something to do with "impulse time" or some such?). I've been an H-110 user but can get a good price in Lil Gun right now. I'm working primarily with Lee's 400gr bullet.

#2, for anyone that's loading the Lee 400gr in the 480, are you loading to the 1st crimp grove (longest OAL) or the 2nd? I would assume that since it fits the SRH cylinder the 1st one would be best to keep pressures lower?

#3 My 1st loads for the 480 I loaded 24.5gr H-110 behind a 370gr cast. Velocity ran 1bout 1167 @ 35*ish. The Hodgon manual calls for 1348fps with 24.0 gr out of the same 7.5" barrel.
One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.

[44man]

Questions for the experienced...
Several questions actually.
#1 Lil Gun vs H-110
Is there a difference in the sharpness of the recoil produced by these two powders if the bullet weight & velocity are the same (does that have something to do with "impulse time" or some such?). I've been an H-110 user but can get a good price in Lil Gun right now. I'm working primarily with Lee's 400gr bullet.

#2, for anyone that's loading the Lee 400gr in the 480, are you loading to the 1st crimp grove (longest OAL) or the 2nd? I would assume that since it fits the SRH cylinder the 1st one would be best to keep pressures lower?

#3 My 1st loads for the 480 I loaded 24.5gr H-110 behind a 370gr cast. Velocity ran 1bout 1167 @ 35*ish. The Hodgon manual calls for 1348fps with 24.0 gr out of the same 7.5" barrel.
One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.

Lil Gun burns very hot and is harsh on a gun. I love 296, then H110.
The WW primer is fine. I use Fed 155's.
I feel you are loading too hot for the .480. You are looking for .475 velocities. My .475 only gets about 1340 fps with the 400 gr boolit.
With .480 brass in my .475 I only use 23 gr max with the Lee 400 gr. The 370 gr should not take a full gr and a half more powder.
Consider the .480 as a .475 special. The velocity you get is a moot point and accuracy should be what you are looking for.
I doubt many animals will complain about your 1167 fps.
None of those book figures are right or at least very rarely are they right. I would not look to match them.

[500bfrman]

I doubt many animals will complain about your 1167 fps.

I think a lot of animals would complain, if they could.

[outdoorfan]

One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.

I have found the WW primers to produce significantly less velocity than the CCI 350's.

[44man]

I have found the WW primers to produce significantly less velocity than the CCI 350's.

They might, I have never compared them since accuracy is much more important to me then velocity.
I will test them later this summer when I have more time.

[outdoorfan]

I did some tests just a couple of weeks ago in the .45 Colt, 5.5 barrel, 345 grain LBT WFN, 21 grs H110, CCI 350's & WLP's.

CCI350's = 1,109 fps

WLP's = 1,055 fps

Accuracy at 25 yards with open sights and rested was too close to the same to say that one was better than the other. However, the WLP's were tighter by a small margin.

I remember having similar results in the .480 back when I was shooting that beast. Would have never gotten rid of it if I had been making my own boolits back then.

[Vance in Ak]

Lil Gun burns very hot and is harsh on a gun. I love 296, then H110.
The WW primer is fine. I use Fed 155's.
I feel you are loading too hot for the .480. You are looking for .475 velocities. My .475 only gets about 1340 fps with the 400 gr boolit.
With .480 brass in my .475 I only use 23 gr max with the Lee 400 gr. The 370 gr should not take a full gr and a half more powder.
Consider the .480 as a .475 special. The velocity you get is a moot point and accuracy should be what you are looking for.
I doubt many animals will complain about your 1167 fps.
None of those book figures are right or at least very rarely are they right. I would not look to match them.

44man, From published data it doesn't seem I'm pushing the 480.
With the 370 cast bullet (the load I gave the FPS for) they list a min of 24.0 & a max of 26.0gr of H-110. 24.5 is obviously well withing that data. But, as I said I'm near a full 200fps under their FPS (for 24.0) with 0.5gr more powder.

I'm not looking to make a 475 out of the 480, but I would like to be able to run the 400gr Lee at at least 1200 (Hodgon lists 1328 as max with H-110 & 1337 as max with Lil Gun.)
End the end accuracy will be more important than velocity, but I do want reasonable velocity.

[454PB]

Lately there has been a lot of discussion concerning Lil'Gun causing excessive heating and forcing cone erosion in revolvers.

I've been using Lil'Gun and experimenting with .357 magnum, .44 magnum, and .454 Casull comparisons to H-110/WW296. My focus has been accuracy, velocity, and "perceived" pressure (since I don't own any pressure measurement equipment). I haven't really paid much attention to heating or erosion, since nothing indicated it was any different from the heating and erosion apparent with H-110/WW296.

I've seen dire warnings that as little as 100 rounds of Lil'Gun fueled ammo can damage a gun. If that's true, I'm far past that point, and my guns have escaped that damage.

What I have found is that Lil'Gun provides about 5% higher velocity with the same or less perceived pressure, and equal or better accuracy.

The other interesting discovery is that in my uses, Lil'Gun seems to change comparative burn rate in larger cartridges. The bigger the case, the quicker it burns.

When the weather improves, I'm planning to do some testing with an infrared thermometer and see if it actually heats the gun more than H-110/WW296.

[44man]

[QUOTE=Vance in Ak;763970]44man, From published data it doesn't seem I'm pushing the 480.
With the 370 cast bullet (the load I gave the FPS for) they list a min of 24.0 & a max of 26.0gr of H-110. 24.5 is obviously well withing that data. But, as I said I'm near a full 200fps under their FPS (for 24.0) with 0.5gr more powder.

I'm not looking to make a 475 out of the 480, but I would like to be able to run the 400gr Lee at at least 1200 (Hodgon lists 1328 as max with H-110 & 1337 as max with Lil Gun.)
End the end accuracy will be more important than velocity, but I do want reasonable velocity.[/QUOTE
I use 26.5 gr with the 400 Lee in my .475 and any more will stick brass. With a 420 gr boolit I need to drop to 26.
I don't know about the 370 gr but it still sounds high.
Maybe more fellas can chime in because I don't have a .480.

[Bucks Owin]

I did some tests just a couple of weeks ago in the .45 Colt, 5.5 barrel, 345 grain LBT WFN, 21 grs H110, CCI 350's & WLP's.

CCI350's = 1,109 fps

WLP's = 1,055 fps

Accuracy at 25 yards with open sights and rested was too close to the same to say that one was better than the other. However, the WLP's were tighter by a small margin.

I remember having similar results in the .480 back when I was shooting that beast. Would have never gotten rid of it if I had been making my own boolits back then.

Interesting. I was doing the same experiment the other day during a break in the soggy weather. My load was 25.0 grs W296 under a 250 gr XTP. Gun is 7.5" Blackhawk. With CCI350, av vel was 1320. With a WLP, av vel dropped to 1217 but velocity was more uniform and more accurate. (1.5"@ 25) The temperature was in the high 40's and the ammo stayed out the night before to "cold soak". I want to test a little more with this but it would seem that a 350 lights the fire better, at least in cooler temps, (with an increase in pressure) but WLPs are more uniform and therefore accurate......FWIW, Dennis (Oh BTW, like everyone else who saw the published dope that Hodgdon put out regarding LilGun in the .357 mag a couple years ago, I had to rush out and get some to try. I couldn't get within nearly 300 fps of the claimed velocity in a 6" M19. Now that I hear of the LG horror stories, I've stayed away from it. 110/296 still reigns king IMO)

[sagacious]

...
Is there a difference in the sharpness of the recoil produced by these two powders if the bullet weight & velocity are the same (does that have something to do with "impulse time" or some such?). I've been an H-110 user but can get a good price in Lil Gun right now. I'm working primarily with Lee's 400gr bullet.

Vance,
I have not used Lil Gun recipes for the 480, so I cannot offer any insight on this question.

#2, for anyone that's loading the Lee 400gr in the 480, are you loading to the 1st crimp grove (longest OAL) or the 2nd? I would assume that since it fits the SRH cylinder the 1st one would be best to keep pressures lower?

Pressure is your friend, especially with WW296. There is a world of difference between "pressure" and "too much pressure." The SAAMI max pressure for the 480Ruger is 48,000psi. When carefully assembling and loading sub-max loads, one may reasonably expect that he maintains a comfortable gap between the working pressures of sub-max loads and the maximum SAAMI pressure.

As I noted in another thread, I use the top crimp on the LEE 400 with 21grs 296. I worked up to that load using the top crimp. I use WLP primers. As I recall, the 21gr WW296 load with the 400gr bullet was the max published lead load I had when I started loading the 480. I had no intention of loading to max velocities, but I was well aware that WW296 works well when loaded to it's full potential and pressure. I kept range-testing/velocity notes as I worked up. My cases don't stick at 21grs.

Lately a whole lot more data has become available for the 480. Currently the Hodgdon/Win published max is 22.3grs WW296 and a 405gr CPB.

I have seen many times where the 480/475 discussion turns into a velocity contest. How can that guy get that velocity with his 480?..... he must be lying... I have no intention of loading the 400gr LEE to 22.3grs of WW296. If I had some unquenchable thirst for as much velocity as I could get, I'd be working-up to 22.3grs and seeing what happened. As it happens, 21grs WW296 gives me what I want with my gun and my loads.

That your starting loads give 200fps velocity less than the published loads doesn't suggest any cause for concern. Such disparities are common. Further, several published sources-- such as Hodgdon/Winchester, Lyman, and Hornady-- list almost identical top-end velocities (approx 1350fps) with for both the 480Ruger and the 475Linebaugh. How can the published max velocities be the same, if the powder charge differs by 4 grains? Disregarding all of that testing data would be the very definition of unwise. Either many separate sources consistently express the same data errors, or different revolvers may well give different velocities (bearing in mind that at least one of the above-mentioned data sources uses a universal receiver for it's data). That different guns give different results is entirely normal and expectable. It might perhaps be to the delight of some 480 owners, and be a cause of consternation for some 475 owners, but that matters not one whit. One must confront the results as one finds them, and not change the facts to match opinion or bias.

#3 My 1st loads for the 480 I loaded 24.5gr H-110 behind a 370gr cast. Velocity ran 1bout 1167 @ 35*ish. The Hodgon manual calls for 1348fps with 24.0 gr out of the same 7.5" barrel.
One person suggested that maybe the low velocity is due to my WW primers (only ones available in the area). Any ideas???

Guess that's it for now.

The underlying reason for your questions is clear to me. But virtually nothing conclusive or definitive can be determined by the analysis of a single sub-max reloading recipe. Anyone who suggests so is suffering from a misapprehension. You need to load more recipes or load different charges. Your statements also lead me to believe that you're exceedingly anxious about excessive pressures and somewhat leery of heavy recoil. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but both those factors will likely prove to be a detriment to load testing, especially if you want a little more velocity.

I agree with 44man that no animal is going to notice a small velocity disparity, and I likewise agree that trying to reach an arbitrary velocity is not in all cases the most prudent or realistic exercise.

You state that you're working primarily with the LEE 400, but I only see test results for the 370gr cast. Have you tested the LEE 400 in your gun, and can you post those results? You're seeking answers based on sub-max recipe results, but no one here can conclude anything about max potential loading recipes or velocity from one sub-max recipe, and far-ranging conclusions based on that limited data should be treated with a large measure of reservation and circumspection.

Hope this helps.

[44man]

Vance,
I have not used Lil Gun recipes for the 480, so I cannot offer any insight on this question.


Pressure is your friend, especially with WW296. There is a world of difference between "pressure" and "too much pressure." The SAAMI max pressure for the 480Ruger is 48,000psi. When carefully assembling and loading sub-max loads, one may reasonably expect that he maintains a comfortable gap between the working pressures of sub-max loads and the maximum SAAMI pressure.

As I noted in another thread, I use the top crimp on the LEE 400 with 21grs 296. I worked up to that load using the top crimp. I use WLP primers. As I recall, the 21gr WW296 load with the 400gr bullet was the max published lead load I had when I started loading the 480. I had no intention of loading to max velocities, but I was well aware that WW296 works well when loaded to it's full potential and pressure. I kept range-testing/velocity notes as I worked up. My cases don't stick at 21grs.

Lately a whole lot more data has become available for the 480. Currently the Hodgdon/Win published max is 22.3grs WW296 and a 405gr CPB.

I have seen many times where the 480/475 discussion turns into a velocity contest. How can that guy get that velocity with his 480?..... he must be lying... I have no intention of loading the 400gr LEE to 22.3grs of WW296. If I had some unquenchable thirst for as much velocity as I could get, I'd be working-up to 22.3grs and seeing what happened. As it happens, 21grs WW296 gives me what I want with my gun and my loads.

That your starting loads give 200fps velocity less than the published loads doesn't suggest any cause for concern. Such disparities are common. Further, several published sources-- such as Hodgdon/Winchester, Lyman, and Hornady-- list almost identical top-end velocities (approx 1350fps) with for both the 480Ruger and the 475Linebaugh. How can the published max velocities be the same, if the powder charge differs by 4 grains? Disregarding all of that testing data would be the very definition of unwise. Either many separate sources consistently express the same data errors, or different revolvers may well give different velocities (bearing in mind that at least one of the above-mentioned data sources uses a universal receiver for it's data). That different guns give different results is entirely normal and expectable. It might perhaps be to the delight of some 480 owners, and be a cause of consternation for some 475 owners, but that matters not one whit. One must confront the results as one finds them, and not change the facts to match opinion or bias.


The underlying reason for your questions is clear to me. But virtually nothing conclusive or definitive can be determined by the analysis of a single sub-max reloading recipe. Anyone who suggests so is suffering from a misapprehension. You need to load more recipes or load different charges. Your statements also lead me to believe that you're exceedingly anxious about excessive pressures and somewhat leery of heavy recoil. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but both those factors will likely prove to be a detriment to load testing, especially if you want a little more velocity.

I agree with 44man that no animal is going to notice a small velocity disparity, and I likewise agree that trying to reach an arbitrary velocity is not in all cases the most prudent or realistic exercise.

You state that you're working primarily with the LEE 400, but I only see test results for the 370gr cast. Have you tested the LEE 400 in your gun, and can you post those results? You're seeking answers based on sub-max recipe results, but no one here can conclude anything about max potential loading recipes or velocity from one sub-max recipe, and far-ranging conclusions based on that limited data should be treated with a large measure of reservation and circumspection.

Hope this helps.

That was nicely said!
I have a chronograph but I find it is useless for finding what shoots. I do all of my load work without it and only take it down if a friend comes over and want's to check his loads. I have loads for my revolvers so accurate I can't shoot good enough to make use of them and I have no idea how fast they are. Others have been checked but ONLY after accuracy work is done first. I could care less how fast my boolits are.
Some of my loads are close to max but only because that was where accuracy was found. I use load data for minimum and maximum loads only, I ignore the velocity part.
Velocity and muzzle energy figures are useless and not worth fooling with. Make the boolit work and animals die with regularity, it is always more important to hit them right.
I try all the time but it is hard to turn fellas away from book figures and high velocities.
Please guys, make your guns accurate first, then go hunting.

[Vance in Ak]

Thanks guys!

Let me share a couple of things.
1st, primary reason for question #1. e don't have a huge powder selection locally, & when I can get H-110 (My long time favorite) I usually pay close to $29 per pound. There is a local store with an 8# keg of Lil Gun for $155. That's a whole lot cheaper so I'm interested. I also know different powders produce a different recoil "feel" at the same velocities. Snappy vs big push etc. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so I like big push vs sharp slap.

#2, I was just wondering what differences people have seen. Hate to reinvent the wheel. If someone was seeing pressure problems with it loaded short & changed to the long OAL & all was good I'd like to know.

#3, if the WW primers are dropping speeds that much over others, I'd like to know.

As far as accuracy, a slow accurate round is always better than a fast inaccurate round. No question. BUT, a relatively fast accurate bullet is best!

I'm not particuraly worried about pressures, but I am careful.
I do believe a chronograph can be very valusble with load development. For example, when working up a hunting load for my mod 29, accuracy was staying unchanged as I went up in powder charge, but while still a full grain below book max with H-110 & 320gr bullets I found that I was gaining -0-fps in velocity. Obviously a waste to go any further.

As far as the 400gr Lee goes, it is my intended bullet. I just got the 1st 100 cast so we'll see.

[Frank]

Just keep in mind that 23 grns 296/110 with the Lee 400 seated to the top groove is 47,000 psi in 480 Ruger. It's compressed 115%. 23.3 puts you over 48,000. 44man's .475 load with 26.5 grns is a comfortable 30,000 with 91% load density. Slower shoots better. Show those targets.

[wolfman]

I am loading the Lee 400g, pan lubed with Felix lube, over 19g of Lil Gun using CCI Mag LP primers, and am seating the boolit in the grove closest to the nose which gives an OAL of 1.68". I have measured the case fill, and I can go up to 20.5 grains, before I risk compressing the powder charge.
Chrono says 1,100fps ave, and I am getting sub 2", 6 round groups at 50 yds, boolits are straight WW water dropped, with no leading in my 7.5" SRH.

[Vance in Ak]

I am loading the Lee 400g, pan lubed with Felix lube, over 19g of Lil Gun using CCI Mag LP primers, and am seating the boolit in the grove closest to the nose which gives an OAL of 1.68". I have measured the case fill, and I can go up to 20.5 grains, before I risk compressing the powder charge.
Chrono says 1,100fps ave, and I am getting sub 2", 6 round groups at 50 yds, boolits are straight WW water dropped, with no leading in my 7.5" SRH.

Wolfman, have you compared Lil Gun with H-110 with these bullets? If so, what were your findings? Felt recoil, accuracy, velocity, etc.

By the way guys, I found some Federal LP & LPM primers that I had stashed. I'll do a comparisom between them & the WW LP primers with H-110. If time permits I'll pick up a # of Lil Gun for testing Monday. Unless someone can tell me it's the cat's meow I hate to buy the keg even though it's the only one he has.

[44man]

Thanks guys!

Let me share a couple of things.
1st, primary reason for question #1. e don't have a huge powder selection locally, & when I can get H-110 (My long time favorite) I usually pay close to $29 per pound. There is a local store with an 8# keg of Lil Gun for $155. That's a whole lot cheaper so I'm interested. I also know different powders produce a different recoil "feel" at the same velocities. Snappy vs big push etc. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so I like big push vs sharp slap.

#2, I was just wondering what differences people have seen. Hate to reinvent the wheel. If someone was seeing pressure problems with it loaded short & changed to the long OAL & all was good I'd like to know.

#3, if the WW primers are dropping speeds that much over others, I'd like to know.

As far as accuracy, a slow accurate round is always better than a fast inaccurate round. No question. BUT, a relatively fast accurate bullet is best!

I'm not particuraly worried about pressures, but I am careful.
I do believe a chronograph can be very valusble with load development. For example, when working up a hunting load for my mod 29, accuracy was staying unchanged as I went up in powder charge, but while still a full grain below book max with H-110 & 320gr bullets I found that I was gaining -0-fps in velocity. Obviously a waste to go any further.

As far as the 400gr Lee goes, it is my intended bullet. I just got the 1st 100 cast so we'll see.

Lighter, faster boolits seem to have more whip and a faster recoil. Heavy boolits have more "Push." I like shooting my .475 better then I do a .454.

[wolfman]

No I havn't, and since I am happy with the results I am getting -w- the Lil Gun, I don't think I will. (Have about 5 lb on hand just for the .480)

[Faret]

Thanks guys!

Let me share a couple of things.
1st, primary reason for question #1. e don't have a huge powder selection locally, & when I can get H-110 (My long time favorite) I usually pay close to $29 per pound. There is a local store with an 8# keg of Lil Gun for $155. That's a whole lot cheaper so I'm interested. I also know different powders produce a different recoil "feel" at the same velocities. Snappy vs big push etc. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so I like big push vs sharp slap.

#2, I was just wondering what differences people have seen. Hate to reinvent the wheel. If someone was seeing pressure problems with it loaded short & changed to the long OAL & all was good I'd like to know.

#3, if the WW primers are dropping speeds that much over others, I'd like to know.

As far as accuracy, a slow accurate round is always better than a fast inaccurate round. No question. BUT, a relatively fast accurate bullet is best!

I'm not particuraly worried about pressures, but I am careful.
I do believe a chronograph can be very valusble with load development. For example, when working up a hunting load for my mod 29, accuracy was staying unchanged as I went up in powder charge, but while still a full grain below book max with H-110 & 320gr bullets I found that I was gaining -0-fps in velocity. Obviously a waste to go any further.

As far as the 400gr Lee goes, it is my intended bullet. I just got the 1st 100 cast so we'll see.

what did your bullets mike out at?

[Faret]

I am using my bullets at .476 and getting leading any body else having the same problems.