It should also be noted that a cast boolit isn't the culprit......the same thing could happen with a jacketed bullet.
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It should also be noted that a cast boolit isn't the culprit......the same thing could happen with a jacketed bullet.
You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore
FYI, the pistol FCD's are not the same as those for rifle cartridges. The pistol die sizes down the whole case, with the boolit inside! Bad idea for accuracy and neck tension. These are not recommended!Originally Posted by docone31
Just use a standard taper crimp die.
The tight fit of the case accounts for the bullet tension. The taper crimp really only turns in the mouth flare and does not do much to hold the bullet in place. If case tension is adequate, the taper crimp is a formality as it address feeding issues and nothing more.
If case tension is poor due to poor bullet fit, no amount of taper crimping will make it right. This gives an idea of the significance of taper crimping in maintaining bullet integrity and position in the case......it's very little help in that area.
Gotta love the 1911's. Mostly they dump out the bottom when they come apart. This makes 3 that I know of with no serious injuries.
I've had pretty good luck with the Lee FCD on .45 acp's. I've used it on about the last 50,000 rounds. However, any of Lee's products can vary a bit in size so I'd suggest checking things out closely on a new die before loading a lot of them. Every time I set up the press, or change boolit design, I re-adjust the crimp die and press a few against the edge of the loading bench to see if I can push the boolit back into the case. It's definitely a different setup for cast than it is for jacketed, and you do need to insure that you're not locating the case mouth over a lube groove. Depending a bit on how your mags lips are configured, that boolit nose get's a good smack when it hit's the feed ramp on the way up.
BD
454PB,
I don't blame the bullets, I blame a couple of noob cast loader operators. It stands to reason that lead which is a form of lubricant will be slicker against brass when compared to copper. It would therefore be more likely to move with recoil. I should have urged him to crimp as I do. I know that it can affect accuracy in match rifle rounds but that is not what we are dealing with here. Besides, my taper crimped .40 cast bullets performed as well or better than jacketed rounds so I just don't feel that it is a valid concern.
I disagree that the Lee Carbide FCD isn't recommended with cast boolits. It sizes down the outside of a case only if the case is bulged larger than the maximum dimensions for the cartridge. It's solved several problems I've had with rounds not chambering with boolits cast too big, but it won't undersize them.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
Technically that is correct information, but in real life it's wrong. The length of the 45 acp case is suppose to be .898 inches. Just like Mike of co and myself have found, there are no cases that long I doubt you will find one either. With that said one of three things help fire the cartridge: the firing pin can protrude quite a distance from the breech face, the extractor will grab and hold the case to some degree, and most likely the bullet touches the leade in or rifling thus spacing it.
Joe
Bullet Magnet,
Since you were doing experimental rounds, are you sure that the brass was correctly sized before loading the boolits? I have pulled a number of cast rounds (various calibers) with a kinetic bullet puller and the case tension has always held the boolit more firmly than I expected it to.
I don't understand why the boolits in the magazine would be "pushed" to different lengths since they each went through the same number of cycles. My only guess is that the difference in the distance from the round to the barrel caused more momentum in the recoil cycle for the rounds closest to the barrel. For the bullets to have moved that much, it sure doesn't look like there is much case tension. My understanding is that almost all the tension comes from resizing, not crimping, especially with a taper crimp.
I vote for either too small a boolit or improperly sized cases.
John
I have more than a little experience in loading the .45 ACP in the 1911 platform.
Over a five year period, when I shot IPSC, I shot 75,000 rounds of .45 ACP alone. Now, that in itself doesn't say a LOT (the pros were shooting 50,000 rounds per year) but I cast my own bullets and loaded my own ammo - they did not
I also "hung around" with some of the best shooters and gunsmiths in the world.
Nearly ALL of my loads were my cast bullets (except where we were required by match regulations to shoot factory hard ball).
First of all, you need to use cases with proper neck thickness. My favorite loads were military cases (it was necessary to swage the primer pockets). I quit using Remington brass because it was too thin to get adequate neck tension.
Regardless of neck tension, you need a good crimp to help keep from deep seating bullets. Taper crimping to a "case mouth edge" of .470" is adequate and will not damage the bullet (which could lead to accuracy limitations). The proper amount of taper crimp presses the case mouth into the side of the cast bullet which helps a LOT to keep from deep seating the bullet (normally caused when the bullet nose strikes the feed ramp when feeding).
I use the barrel to determine seating depth of my cast bullets. I headspace on the bullet. Using the barrel chamber as a gauge, I seat the bullet until it'll drop in with the case head flush with the barrel hood. This gives the shooter consistent ignition. As has been stated, I have NEVER found a .45 ACP case that met minimum lengths. I have always believed that consistent headspace is a POSITIVE thing for good, consistent igition (which is an aid to accuracy). Headspacing on the bullet gives you this. Understand, this is with CAST bullets. Jacketed bullets require a bit more room as they are, in effect, non-compressible and a slightly long round MIGHT not allow the slide to completely close - with cast bullets, it'll just seat the bullet into the lead without problems.
Contrary to popular superstition, you CAN successfully roll crimp bullets in the .45 ACP (NRA Handloaders Guide, page 248 ".45 ACP Handload Accuracy" by the great pistolsmith, Alton Dinan).
I would like to make one final observation. The magazine shows a deep seated bullet BEFORE (presumably) the round attempted to feed. This tells me that the brass is entirely TOO thin and/or the bullet is too small in diameter.
FWIW, I size my bullets to .452", and as above prefer military brass for the case wall thickness for good bullet tension. Remington brass was scrupulously removed as with my particular die set (and most of my shooting buddies) it was not possible to get proper case neck tension to go along with a good taper crimp to avoid this particular issue (deep seating).
A really "good read" for these problems and avoidance of same can be had by taking a look at another NRA book, "Handloading". M.D. Waite, on page 108 "Handloading the .45 ACP" illustrates the proper amount of crimp and WHY it helps (and is necessary) to eliminate "deep seating". It is a shame this book is "out of print". If you get a chance to pick up a copy, I recommend it.
Dale53
Last edited by Dale53; 12-07-2009 at 08:20 PM.
Bullet Magnet,
First off, glad no one was seriously injured.
You didn't say whether your buddy expanded the case mouths before seating. If he did and did not size the case back to .470", that may have created less tension.
If he did not bell the case mouth before seating, he probably shaved the bullet during seating and reduced the diameter of the bullet, causing less tension.
Aaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhh!!!! Twice in less than a week I agree with Joe.
I just measured 50 cases. Longest was .893, shortest was .879, book says trim to .898. Rifle shooters would cringe if you told them you have -.019 headspace. Forget what the book says about headspacing straight wall auto pistol rounds.
Bullet Magnet, if you had shown the pix without the text I would have said....over pressure due to bullet set back on the feed ramp. Second guess would be double powder charge. The pix look like the cartridges do have a taper crimp, but since you are adamant about the crimp and powder charge, I can only assume that the crimp is insufficient.
I load around 15,000 45ACP every year. Down from a peak of about 50,000 when my son and I were both shooting IPSC and practicing on a regular basis. I have NEVER trimmed a piece of 45ACP brass. Most of the 45 brass that I cull is at the priming stage. One of our local shooters seems to have a never-ending supply of pre war WCC ammo and I also find some mil-spec FC brass that gives me fits when trying to seat primers. Other than that I'll load the brass till it splits and I can't recall the last time I had a failure to feed.
In-my-not-so-humble-opinion, 45ACP is the easiest cartridge to load that you can find anywhere. If you have to depend on gimmicks like the Lee Factory Crimp Die to make good 45ACP ammo then there's something wrong with your basic reloading procedure.
Like every thing else.....YMMV.
Jerry
Was he using a Lee Factory Crimp Die to seat? I've seen the carbide ring in the FCD size boolits so that they were loose in the case after using the die.
Count your fingers, then your eyes, then your blessings Sir! As a side note I cut the carbide rings our of all 3 of my Lee FC dies. It WAS swaging my bullets down. It would take great force to run them through the die. I shoot .358 diameter bullets in my Browning Hi Power and the FC die from Lee is for .355 bullets for the 9MM. They now just crimp, and do a dandy job of that!
You can miss fast & you can miss a lot, but only hits count.
Regards Lee FCD swagging... I personally experienced the phenomenon in .45 ACP with the Lee 452-228-1R and a friend, who posts here occasionally as pstew, had it happen to him in .40 S&W. Not sure of the boolit he was using.
Good morning all!! Happy no body was hurt. I had this happen one time as well, it was determined by my smith that the gun had not fully gone into battrie leaving the slide open just enough that the case was un supported. This is not supposed to happen due to an index linkage that tells the gun that the slide is home and can fire. Mine was a was a goldcup that was mis-machined at the factory,since I was shooting re-loads coalt would not touch it. I am not saying that this is what happened here but may be likely. Other than grips and magazine my gun was not damaged, my smith re-worked it and it went on to fire many more rounds! Note on reloading the mouth headspacing cases I allmost allways turn and polish down the expander so I get a nice snug fit with the boolit!
Given that the very closest the extractor can hold the front of the rim of the case to the breechface is about .040" in a 1911 (and that's very, very conservative on the low end), even with short cases the vast, vast majority of the time the 45 ACP will headspace on the case mouth or on the bullet, depending upon what bullet is loaded and how much full diameter bearing surface is outside of the case.
A great many people who argue that the extractor headspaces the round have never measured the extractor hook to breechface distance, and have no idea how far the front of the rim has to be from the breechface for the extractor to play a role in headspacing.
If the "book" says the 45 ACP is designed to headspace on the case mouth, and that it does so the majority of the time, believe it.
A great many people are mistaken on this particular point, and don't investigate things for themselves.
If you've a more open mind than some, get a set of feeler gauges and measure the breechface to inside of extractor hook distance, and rethink what you think you know about the extractor "headspacing" the round.
My pistols are greater than .040" by a very, very noticeable amount, FWIW. Even given some hood to breechface slack in lockup, a long chamber and a short case, most rounds aren't going to headspace on the extractor even if the bullet used will allow it.
If you don't have a set of feeler gauges, take a 1/16 hex head wrench (about 0.061" as mine measure) and try to pass it between extractor hook and breechface. Mine'll pass this wrench, and then of course the gun is headspacing the cases on the case mouth almost no matter what else is going on. It'll pass a 0.048" diameter hex head wrench with a very noticeable clearance on one side.
My gun headspaces on the case mouth or bullet. Likely yours does too.
Last edited by 35remington; 12-08-2009 at 03:41 PM.
We are usinging Hornady dies and we are flaring the cases. This is the same set that we used to load a great many rounds prior to this. I will check and see what type of brass those boolits were loaded in. We are also going to play with the rest of the unfired rounds and see what the tension is.
I sure would like to get to the bottom of this before I proceed loading more. I would be sick to lose my Sig 226 or Beretta.
Maybe it's just the pic but the cases looked roll crimped to me. Could we get a better close up of the cases?
Good luck. The bullet tension should be easy to diagnose; the double charge possibility is harder to find, but very likely.
If a case can have a double powder charge, according to Mr. Murphy sometimes it will if the utmost caution is not being used.
I can try to get another pic next time I see him, but he loaded them at my house without a crimp die. I was sitting there as well because I was weighing the charges.
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