Woooooo Wee...Blackhorn 209 Powder

[omgb]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;648285]

....I have some firecrackers left over from the 4th of July....they do still use BP in those don't they?

Joe

Not likely. Most firecrackers use a compound called flash powder. it is very different from BP. It burns much faster and makes a much louder report with only a miniscule amount of powder.

[StarMetal]

Just for the record, I shot a lot of Pyrodex back in the late 70s, literally, several cases. It was OK. I tried RS, P, Ctg and a special grade that had the fines sifted out of it. If it was all I could get, I could work with it. Next I tried American Pioneer. Geez, that was ****. It clumped, it sent velocities all over the place and it made a mess in the brass. I'd prefer never to use that stuff again. My next move was to 777. It shoots OK but SDs are not good. 100 fps difference shot to shot was not uncommon and.....it produced more pressure for sure. You had to be careful how you loaded it or you could get cratered primers without any advance warning. Then the price....it was $22/lb the last time I used it. BP was and is, about $14/lb for GOEX. So, I'm sticking with GOEX but.....I do duplex as noted above. So may be I'm a hybrid kinda guy who's to say?

First 45nut posted a thread on what you could use for that word that you had filtered out. Poop is one that you can use. Can't use the one you tried to use. Just making you aware.

Now as to 777 it's great powder. About the best out there except maybe for the upcoming Blackhorn 209. You are getting a wide variation because you may not be tamping the bullet atop the powder to really compress it. All Pyrodex and 777 like and need that. I shoot over the chrono and 777 is in the single digits variation for me. I bet better accuracy then Pyrodex and less fouling. Soon as Wideners gets Blackhorn 209 in I will be testing it.

Joe

[Squint]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was afraid the "good laugh" about Clear Shot was going to be something like that.

I was touted on to the Clear Shot as being virtually non-corrosive but was, of course, pretty doubtful. So, when I first started using it, I decided to test it out. My plan was to leave my barrel dirty and keep it beside my desk where I would not forget to check it often and see what would develop. I would usually go a week or so before the dirty barrel bugged me so much that I would break down and clean it. At no time did I ever observe any corrosion and every time I cleaned it, it came out shiney bright.

I do not discount your observations Underclocked and think the results may have come out much different if I had stored it outdoors. I'll continue to use Clear Shot but will watch it carefully and not be leaving anything uncleaned.

I agree, the BH 209 seems a poor candidate for the ROA but it don't hurt to check. They may call it 209 but they also recommend it for loading cartridges. So, who knows? Anyway, I'll be trying it if I can find some.

Squint

[omgb]

You are getting a wide variation because you may not be tamping the bullet atop the powder to really compress it. All Pyrodex and 777 like and need that. I shoot over the chrono and 777 is in the single digits variation for me. I bet better accuracy then Pyrodex and less fouling. Soon as Wideners gets Blackhorn 209 in I will be testing it.

Joe

My understanding was that 777 is not to be compressed. In fact, i think Hodgdon actually says it both on the can and on the web site. Am I right on this?

[Underclocked]

"Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges."

"Percussion Firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile."

from Hodgdon's loading notes section.

[TexRebel]

well guys I shoot BP Cartridge, Cap an Ball, flinters , even have a wheel lock, by choice i use Goex when i can get it, because i like it, sure it is messy, and has to be cleaned, but half the fun of shooting BP is the smudge it leaves on your face


PS, I don'e even know if pyrodex or Trip 7 even make a cannon powder, so there is another reason I like the old BP, I can even make it if I need to

[BABore]

I just got off the horn with a gentleman from the Western Powder ballistic lab. We were discussing a few things in regards to their Blackhorn 209. Number one is he highly recommended that the powder be tamped down as it was more consistent. He also suggested that I don't use Winchester 209 primers. Said that the Federal or CCI 209's were hotter and they found they worked the best. He also said to avoid the muzzleloader specific 209's as they were too soft for good ignition and they are mainly for 777. I asked about load develeopement as far as working up the powder charge in increments. This is in regards to an in-line MZ loader that is capable of handling 150 grains of Pyrodex or 777. He said that Western had found that near max loadings always showed best accuracy. Also that Hornady had went from min to max, in 1 gr. increments, testing their boolits. Their best accuracy was at 118 grains, 120 is max. I also confirmed that although this powder has the same volumetric measurement as black, that it is 70% of this by weight. So 120 grs by vol. equals 84 grs by wt. I had confirmed this prior as my dealer had related it also.

I fired about 20 rounds of BH209 last weekend for the first time. All charges were weighed at 84 grs and fired in my T/C Encore 50x209. This gun has a tight bore and I've always had to clean between shots for top accuracy. I purposely didn't clean between shots with the BH to see what it would do. I was using Winchester 209 primers and not tamping the powder. Two bad things I found out today.

All loads loaded with pretty much the same force. No powder ring at all. The threaded breech plug came out like I hadn't even shot it. I cleaned the bore to white patch clean with 4-5 patches with Ed's Red and a few dry patches. The breech plug face was wiped a few times with solvent coated patches to clean. Overall, just as Western advertised it. Very little fuss.

As far as accuracy, I'm withholding opinion on that. Groups were definetly bigger than what I was accustomed to with Pyrodex pellets. They ran around 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" for 3-shots at 100 yards. I will be trying them again soon with the recommendations from Western. I will also shoot a few groups and clean between shots. Just to see.

[Underclocked]

BABore, did they advise you to thoroughly clean the breech plug internally? They should have. The channel below the primer cup will fill with carbon deposits if not cleaned routinely. You would need a 1/8" drill bit, turn by hand with some good solvent on the bit.

And I would back down to about 100 grains volumetric for the next effort.

[BABore]

No they didn't, but I will pay attention to it. Thanks.

I did manage to shoot a few rounds yesterday and they were quite positive. I used the following;

My BRP 452-300 Sabot boolit in HP form (290 grains)
Knight Magnum high pressure sabots (black)
CCI 209M Primer
84 grains, by wt., BH 209
Load tamped 3 times

From the bench, at 100 yards, with 9x scope, the first two figure eighted. On the third loading I had a friend yacking at me. When I sat down to shoot I though I had forgot to tamp the charge, so I did it. That shot went wide about an inch. Evidently I had already tamped it prior. Oops! I reloaded and shot one more to hopefully redeem myself. Lucked out there. It cloverleafed the first two shots for a measured and witnessed 0.500" group. All four shots went 1 1/4". Didn't have time to try swabbing after a couple shots or so. Hopefully on the next outing. So far, so good.

[Underclocked]

Good shooting. What does that boolit look like? Sounds like a good'un.

Is that the one listed as the .452-300 under .50 muzzleloader? Do you have molds for that other than the one you use?

[BABore]

Good shooting. What does that boolit look like? Sounds like a good'un.

Is that the one listed as the .452-300 under .50 muzzleloader? Do you have molds for that other than the one you use?

Yes, it's the one listed on my site. So far, I've only used, and have the two, I have listed. Easy enough to cut more if needed. I have a few other 0.452-0.460 dia., rifle and pistol designs that could be made to work as well. I had 45 2.1 help me design a profile that was as ballistically efficient as possible and still have a hunting meplat. So far, with the 300 grainer, 200 yard drop is within an inch of the Hornady 250 grain SST MZ. I still need to verify the 300 yard drop, but I imagine it will be a bit more than the Hornady. Here's a pic of the 300 (L) and 400 (R) grain boolits. Both drop at 0.453 and have been sized to 0.452 in a push-thru.

[Underclocked]

Are you casting those in pure or wheelweights or ? I like that one on the left, looks like it would fly well and I guess you've proven that already. Thanks for the picture.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive tried about all of them. Only one i havent tried is blackhorn. I keep going back to 777 because it gives me the best accuracy. To be honest i did have good luck the year i shot clearshot. Last year i was using goex pinicle and it wasnt to bad but for the most part 777 outshot it. I was going to use pinicle again this year as i had some left over but i got a new gun and it ended up being a nightmare to get shooting well and i used it all up. I bought a new jug and when i opened it i found one big clump of powder. I brought it back and told the dealer (a buddy) and he checked and about half the cans he had were like that. So its got to really suck up moisture.

[BABore]

Are you casting those in pure or wheelweights or ? I like that one on the left, looks like it would fly well and I guess you've proven that already. Thanks for the picture.

I use 50/50 WW-Pb and air cooled the boolits. They come out at 9-10 bhn and are less prone to fragmenting and riveting like straight WW's. Since the max load velocity with BH 209 is supposed to be slightly over 2,000 fps, I figured straight Pb might be a tad too soft.

[Underclocked]

If you could design one similar to the 300 grainer, only in .401 caliber at about 230-240 grains - betcha that sucker would fly great using MMP or Harvester blue .50/.40 sabots. You could push it pretty hard and have a reasonably flat shooting bullet that would be plenty adequate for whitetail.

Not that what you have won't work perfectly well.

ps: your bullet reminds me of a White PowerStar which is an absolutely excellent projectile.

[BABore]

That might be something to do when I get a moment of boredom. My only concern would be sabot petal thickness. I have found that accuracy inproves as the petal thickness goes down. At least in my Encore anyway. I've tested the MMC sabots design for 0.429, 0.452, and 0.458. The 458's outshot the rest. Thought it could be the bullets used, so I tried several. The Speer 458, 400 grain was a tackdriver. Before I used my own cast boolits I was using the Hornady 250 SST MZ's. Out of my gun and a couple buddy's Black Diamond's, they would all hover around and inch or under for 3 shots. The 300 grain SST's are even better. The best bullet I've shot was the Barnes copper HP job. The one you can drop a 209 in the HP for storage. My best group was 1 3/8" at 200 yards. Problem was you just about had to jackhammer them down the clean bbl.

I really don't shoot my Encore that much. I really hate cleaning the dang things after each use. Hopefully the BH 209 will help with this.