Is it really illegal to make black powder

[texasmac]

[shooterg]

When I was a kid, my Gilbert chemistry set came with sulphur and potassium nitrate. Charcoal not hard to make ! I thought the one hole stoppers were just perfect for fuses...
Now kid's chemistry sets do not come stocked with ANYTHING that is any fun at all.

[Circuit Rider]

Everything I have read for storing BP I think I'm doing. In original containers, In sealed ammo cans, in a cool dry place. I have more than 5 lbs. Do I need to build a separate steel storage unit for it? Circuit Rider

[windrider919]

cool /dry is ok although it is nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin based powders that really need cool to prevent deteriation. They deteriorate because the acid used to make them is not totally flushed out and the traces remaining sort of activate to ruin the powder at higher temps. There is WWII ammo that has been stored in underground bunkers at 45 degrees that is still just as powerful today as when loaded. Yet I read an article that shells left in a car trunk for a hot summer lost almost 10% velocity.

BP is not effected by heat like this, remember old artillery shells loaded with BP from the Civil war still go off at times today. The point with smokeless single and double base progressive powder storage is to NOT contain the gas which would cause an explosion but to let it vent. That is why the steel and plastic 1 lb containers would rupture and let the gas from burning powder freely escape. And powder safes are built / designed to try to keep the fire away for a while but at some point let the powder burn without containment so it does not explode.

But BP will explode even without significant containment. And any containment makes it worse and adds shrapnel to the incident. Thats why the different shipping and storage rules. BP explodes and progressive burns fast Putting BP in a strong, sealed box like an ammo can is asking for a stronger explosion IF it were to explode, like in a house fire. And smokeless / progressive might be contained enough in a strong box like an ammo can to reach a little higher level of burn rate and sort of explode instead of burn. So, light weight easily ruptured steel box ok but strong steel (ammo) box not ok.

[melchior]

pietro,

White & red powder is safer & faster to make. Just follow the US government directions. Chemists from DuPont/IMR worked on the project that ended in the gov publication.

Can anyone point me to that publication?

[Jim]

http://onlinebooks.110mb.com/tm%2031...-210-01-09.htm

Here ya' go.

[1874Sharps]

I must say that I would be disinclined to make my own BP for several reasons. First and foremost there are safety issues, some of which should be obvious and some of which may not be to those without an educational background in chemistry. I do agree with some of you out there that it certainly can be safely with proper precautions and risk management. There is, however, much that can go catastrophically wrong. History is replete with accidents resulting in mortality and injury at powder mills. One of the DuPont family was killed as I recall in the early days of their powder making venture in such an explosive accident. I live in the city/country (within city limits in a somewhat rural setting) and have neighbors. This alone tends to deter me. If I lived in the country on 40 acres I still do not think I would make the stuff as long as I can buy it reasonably (even though I have a degree in chemistry). I do have KNO3 for making nitrated paper for cap and ball revolver paper cartridges and could get sulphur and make charcoal, crush and powder the components, etc., but the cost/benefit analysis in my mind does not justify the attempt. For some of you it may and you are welcome to do so (I know of no laws against it and there are suppliers that will sell you everything you need to get set up). The only thing I would say is for your own sake read everything you can on the subject to THOROUGHLY educate yourself on all aspects before embarking on such an endeavor!!!! Do not try to make large batches, but rather do it in small amounts so that you minimize the risk. There is not just the science to master but there is also the technical and art aspects in making BP. In other words it is not just mixing the three components according to a formula. There are different qualities and grades of commercial BP and the only reason I would try it on my own is if I thought I could whip up some super duper stuff that was better than the best grades presently available and I seriously doubt I could. I hope this post does not offend anyone of either opinion but rather I hope it is understood in the context of friendly and helpful suggestion.

[cal50]

Ball mill ingredients- Easy
Press milled powder into pucks to the required density-Easy
Corning (granulating) powder- Can be dangerous and where most accidents happen.
Sieving for size -Easy
Graphite coating- If you really want to!

It's not difficult but do not get in a hurry and use a good charcoal (key) for fast powder. Willow , Balsa or grape vine are excellent BP charcoals.

[Marlin Hunter]

I have more than 5 lbs. Do I need to build a separate steel storage unit for it? Circuit Rider

Around here the law WAS that dealers had to store their powder in a wooden box at least 1 inch thick and held together with glue or something else besides nails or screws that could become shrapnel if the box exploded. I think metal hinges and screw for the hinge were OK. The reason for the wood is that in a fire it wood give some insulation to the powder, while a metal box would transmit the heat much faster. If the wooden box caught on fire it would not explode if the powder ignited from the heat. It would just burn real fast. A steel box like an ammo can could become a bomb and injure firefighters if they came to put out the fire. There was no law for individuals except a max of 5 lbs of BP, but no limit for smokeless.

[perotter]

http://onlinebooks.110mb.com/tm%2031...-210-01-09.htm

Here ya' go.

That copy has a typo. It should be 1/8 cup of rust. NOT 1.8 cups. There is an accurate copy on the internet. I didn't book mark it, but I'll search for it tonite.

[PatMarlin]

There was a guy who sold homemade ball mills, and had a complete do it yourself website on the subject. What happened to him. Did he blow up?

I say run that tumbler on the south 40 and don't stand over it while it's crushing for one ..

[dsmjon]

Better start practicing now. Who knows, by 2012 or 2016 we might all be discussing this on "underground" belletin boards, b/c gunpowder will be illegal. Might not hurt to freshen up on how to make your own.

That being said, anyone know how to make your own primers?

/tinfoil hat OFF

[4t5]

Actually, my local fire code specifies no more than 5lbs BP contained in the original container, then up to 50 lbs in an approved 'venting fire safe'. Above 50 lbs is not legal in the home and must be stored in a separate permitted 'magazine' facility / structure.

TX state law allows 25# of BP in a private residence.

Sec. 229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies. (b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
(1)...(2)...(3)...(4)...
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not subject to regulation;...

[klcarroll]

Well, ....since BP is a regulated explosive, ....I would imagine that if the local BATF office got wind of the fact that you were manufacturing, they would, at the very least, start bugging you about "proper record keeping". (....And THAT would become a PITA in a hurry!)

My personal feeling is: .....The less I have to do with those bureaucrats, ...The better!

Kent

[perotter]

Well, ....since BP is a regulated explosive, ....I would imagine that if the local BATF office got wind of the fact that you were manufacturing, they would, at the very least, start bugging you about "proper record keeping". (....And THAT would become a PITA in a hurry!)

My personal feeling is: .....The less I have to do with those bureaucrats, ...The better!

Kent

For one's own use & for small arms such thing are exempt for the BATF.

[perotter]

Better start practicing now. Who knows, by 2012 or 2016 we might all be discussing this on "underground" belletin boards, b/c gunpowder will be illegal. Might not hurt to freshen up on how to make your own.

That being said, anyone know how to make your own primers?

/tinfoil hat OFF

Yes. I've been posting on a couple of other forums the last few months about it & the use of plate for loading the primers. In the past I've made the cups. Currently I'm just reloading fired primers.

The cheapest mix is about $0.25 for 1,000 primers.

FWIW, one of my criteria for the mixes is that one doesn't need an investment in equipment. My real interest is in simple, safe & inexpensive smokeless propellants. But primers are in short supply & I like doing public service work.

If there is any interest, I'll post some links to primer making & list a couple of good books.

[krag35]

If there is any interest, I'll post some links to primer making & list a couple of good books.
************************************************** ***********************
Please Do !!!!

[perotter]

'Ammunition Making' by G. Frost. It's been out of print for a while & used copies go for about $250. Don't know the copyright/legal side of this book.

Link to the password needed to unzip it:
http://www.katzforums.com/showthread.php?t=342488
Link to download it:
http://rapidshare.com/files/22265556...ion_Making.rar

This book is basically a tech manual for running an ammo factory. All the details for making ammo are in it. How to make cases, primers, loading equipment, safety, etc.

This has making the cup & anvils. The equipment, specs etc. Details on making current US primer mixes. I don't make these.

I have just finished round one testing on mixes that are simpler for small scale DIY. If we can't get the chems for at least one of them, we're pre-Stone age. Also, these will work when called upon. Most simple & not of simple non-corrosive won't. Or have limited shelf life.

Tested A&O number 4 but used barium nitrate. This is a combined hot gas / hot spark mix . They said it's good all around for pistol, shotgun & rifle. They said fast primer.

Dry. In a small pistol cup. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). Filled cup again & packed(this is called 3/4 cup). 1/2 cup didn't work. The 3/4 cup did work each time. The amount of mix that worked was 0.5 grains. Normal commercial is 0.4 grains. When fired in the pistol, the flame from the end of the pistol was over a foot long.

Retested in rifle. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). 1/2 cup worked. The amount of mix for 1/2 was 0.4 grains. When fired in the rifle, the flame from the end of the barrel was over a foot long.


Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 34.32% 2
Barium nitrate 24.26% 1
Sulfur 26.63% 2
Aluminum Powder 14.79% 1

Add 1% baking soda to this mix.

1. Measure out 1 volume of Barium nitrate and put it on a sheet of paper. Crush out any lumps.
2. Measure out 1 volume of powder aluminum beside the BN.
3. Measure out 2 volume of sulfur and put it on a sheet of paper beside the BN. Crush out any lumps.
3. Pour the above back & forth between 2 sheets of paper 10 to 20 times.
4. Beside this pile of mix, measure out 2 volumes of potassium chlorate. Crush out any lumps.
5. Combine it all together.
6. Pour it back & forth between 2 sheets of paper until your very bored. 20 to 30 times for me.
7. Reload primers.


Tested Ron Brown's modified. This is more of hot spark primer. Should be a good all around.

Dry. In a small pistol cup. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). Filled cup again & packed(this is called 3/4 cup). 1/2 cup did work each time. The amount of mix for 1/2 was 0.4 grains. The 3/4 did work each time. The amount of mix for 3/4 was 0.5 grains. When fired in the pistol, the flame from the end of the pistol was about the same as CCI small pistol.


Retested in rifle. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). 1/2 cup worked & was 0.4 grains. When fired in the rifle, there was no flame from the end of the barrel.


Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 46.6% 3
Sulfur 19.41% 2
Grit* 33.98% 1.5

Add 1% baking soda to this mix.

* The grit I used was 4030 sandblasting sand. Just measured it out. I think this is to a little course. I also, think one could use less of it.

1. Measure out 2 volumes of sulfur and put it on a sheet of paper. Crush out any lumps.
2. Measure out 1 1/2 volumes of fine sand. Add this to the sulfur.
3. Pour the above back & forth between 2 sheets of paper 10 to 20 times.
4. Beside this pile of mix, measure out 3 volumes of potassium chlorate. Crush out any lumps.
5. Combine it all together.
6. Pour it back & forth between 2 sheets of paper until your very bored. 20 to 30 times for me.
7. Reload primers.

Untested A&O number 3 but used barium nitrate. They said for rifle only.

Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 33.33% 2
Barium nitrate 24.26% 1
Sulfur 25.86% 2
Antimony Sulfide 17.24% 1

Add 1% baking soda to this mix.

Tested by me Ron Brown 'Homemade Guns and Homemade Ammo'


Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 52.73% 3
Sulfur 27.27% 2
Grit 20% 1.5

Add 1% baking soda to this mix.
The % by weight is close. Depends of what the grit is.

Dry. Small pistol cup. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). 1/2 cup did work each time. The amount of mix for 1/2 was 0.4 grains. When fired in the rifle, the flame from the end of the barrel was less than CCI small pistol. Used powder glass- broken window, hammer & sauce pan.


Untested by me FA-70 old US gov mix

FA-70 this is what the US military, given them to them by Winchester, used from 1918 into the 1950s. It was used is some match grade ammo into the 1960s. They switched to this because of it's long storage life, reliability, etc. This is considered the best primer mix ever.


Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 53% ?
Antimony Sulfide 17% ?
Lead Sulfocyanate 25% ?
TNT 5% ?


DOESN'T need baking soda.
The last 2 aren't going to found at the local garden store. They can be made at home, but ....

Tested FA-42 old US gov mix

FA-42 this is what the US military used before FA-70. And was the original 30/06 primer. They switched to get rid of the pure sulfur. In the end, the problem was that they weren't properly dried & bromite in the chlorate.

Dry. Small pistol cup. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). 1/2 cup did work each time. The amount of mix for 1/2 was 0.4 grains. When fired in the rifle, the flame from the end of the barrel was about the same as CCI small pistol.


Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 47.20% 2
Antimony Sulfide 30.83% 1.59
Sulfur 21.97% 1.66

Add 1% baking soda to this mix.
I started with the weight & than calculated the volume. Not real clean by volume.

Tested H-48 old US gov mix

H-48 this is what the US military used before FH-42. It was used in the 30/40 Krag They switched to get rid of the glass.

Dry. Small pistol cup. Used powder glass. Filled cup & pack(this is called 1/2 cup). 1/2 cup did work each time. The amount of mix for 1/2 was 0.4 grains. When fired in the rifle, the flame from the end of the barrel was about the same as CCI small pistol.

Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 49.6% ?
Antimony Sulfide 25.1% ?
Sulfur 8.7% ?
Glass 16.6%

Add 1% baking soda to this mix.
I started with the weight & than calculated the volume. Not real clean by volume.


Untested by me "Chemistry of Pyrotechnics" #3


Chem %weight by volume
Potassium chlorate 50%
Antimony Sulfide 20%
Lead peroxide 25%
NC/TNT/ETC 5%

DOESN'T need baking soda.

Untested by me "Chemistry of Pyrotechnics" #4

Chem %weight by volume
Potassium perchlorate 50%
Zirconium 50%

DOESN'T need baking soda.

The ones that I've made I've tested in the gun etc. I also left them out uncovered in a room for 2 months. They all still worked. I haven't tried them with hard to ignite powders.

I'm leaning heavy toward FA-42 for non-magnum primers for must work apps. I've been working a couple of different non-corrosive mixes for target & hunt load.

Gunshow Books has this one that, IMO, is worth having. 'The Poor Man's Primer Manual'.
http://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/...3&sid=ED5Qm56t

That is were I got some of the info on making primer plates. I'll post some more latter.

[texasmac]

Interesting,

I have an pristine copy of Ammunition Making by George E. Frost from when the NRA was selling it back in the mid 90's. Although not at $250, Amazon.com currently has two used copies listed for sale at $199.99, so it's increased almost 10-fold in value since I bought it.

By the way, some time ago I checked Amason's price and noted it on a label on the front cover. On 12-28-08 the price for a used copy was $89.95, so it's more than doubled in value in 9 months. If only a few of my stocks would do that I'd be able to quit my day job.

Wayne

[texasmac]

If anyone is interested I also have a pristine (brand new condition) copy of Black Powder Manufacturing, Testing & Optimizing by Ian von Maltitz. It's considered by many as the "bible of black powder manufacturing". Amazon currently has a used one listed for $117.44 + shipping. I'll priority ship my copy to the 1st guy that sends me $95 cash or a USPS money order.

A few years ago I thought about making my own black powder, but never got around to attempting it and have given up on the idea.

Wayne
PM or email me at texas*mac*@*sbc*global*.*net (remove all the *'s)