This is dangerous, I did some thinking!

[44man]

All of you know how I feel about shooting a hard WLN or WFN too fast from a revolver for deer. Since I don't use a rifle, some of you have to help out a little.
I feel the pressure wave in front moves tissue out of the way and this secondary wound channel collapses just leaving the hole from the boolit. Slow the boolit and it works fine.
But the light went on all of a sudden and made me wonder. If the boolit is sped up a lot more, the secondary channel will be created with more violence.
I am beginning to think there is a dead zone where the boolit can fail but below or above those velocities, the boolit is fine.
Whitworth shot a smallish pig with a borrowed .460 using commercial WFN boolits that fall into the velocity range I have trouble with. He made a double lung shot and the pig did not react. He had to chase it down through a swamp and keep shooting it with his .44. I do not remember if he said he shot it again with the .460, I will check.
He said the lungs were still intact from the .460.
So what do you think, could there just be a dead zone where the boolit is dead and the animal isn't until it gets away?

[Marlin Hunter]

I think, besides actual bone/muscle damage, it is a good idea to transfer the maximum amount of energy from the boolit to the game in as short of a time as possible. There might be a point where the boolit travels at the right speed where very little damage is done. I do not know the physics behind it. It might be like yanking a paper-towel off a roll. if its done right, there is little damage to the towel or roll. do it slow and you pull everything down, do it too fast and you tear off only a portion of the towel.

It seems like the faster the boolit is moving, the more meat is damaged around the primary bullet cavity.

I think it has more to do with where you hit it. There isn't anything inside the lungs to expand the boolit, only air. Why not shoot it in the head?

I hunt with a 444 marlin and all my hits are through the heart. I never had to chase a deer.

[44man]

I think, besides actual bone/muscle damage, it is a good idea to transfer the maximum amount of energy from the boolit to the game in as short of a time as possible. There might be a point where the boolit travels at the right speed where very little damage is done. I do not know the physics behind it. It might be like yanking a paper-towel off a roll. if its done right, there is little damage to the towel or roll. do it slow and you pull everything down, do it too fast and you tear off only a portion of the towel.

It seems like the faster the boolit is moving, the more meat is damaged around the primary bullet cavity.

I think it has more to do with where you hit it. There isn't anything inside the lungs to expand the boolit, only air. Why not shoot it in the head?

I hunt with a 444 marlin and all my hits are through the heart. I never had to chase a deer.

Well remember I am revolver hunting off hand. The gun I have trouble with is the 45-70 BFR, 378 gr WFN at about 1630 fps. Close shots through both lungs does little damage but the few I hit at 100 yards died very fast with the same hits.
I have no trouble at all with the .44, .45 or .475, all being slower.
Now I wonder what my .45 boolit will do at say 1800 fps from a rifle? Will it also reach the dead zone at a longer range, reversing what the revolver does?
I think it is worth some thought.

[geargnasher]

44Man, this is probably a question you've answered a hundred times before, but I don't know so I'll ask anyway: Why not use hollowpoints tuned to your alloy, gun, and velocity?

I know that hps have under- or over-velocity performance issues, but they perform best in the MIDDLE of a curve, they don't have a DIP in the middle of the curve like you're postulating solid-nose boolits could have, or if they do for the same reasons, at least they're BIGGER!

Gear

[insanelupus]

44 Man,

I used to carry a Browning HiWall in .45-70 quite a bit hunting whitetail deer. Using factory Remington 405 grain loads (around 1300 fps IIRC), that thing absolutely slammed deer. I started boosting ballistics with handloads using the same bulk Remington 405 grain load. (Granted, these are jacketed bullets, not cast), but I began to see when I boosted velocity I was not nearly as pleased with terminal ballistics in relation to how quickly I recovered the deer. I started backing things off, went from around 1750 fps to 1600 fps, I was more pleased, but the next loads will be slower yet I think. I actually want to go to cast bulllets when the current loads are shot up.

Veral Smith had a theory in which there is a point where trauma is so great that blood vessels essentially shut down supply of blood (wound from a high velocity round) as opposed to a slower, heavier projectile. I spoke with a couple of doctors about it, in theory they agreed such a circumstance could exist. Does it work in reality, I dunno. But I think there is something to it.

More and more I find the adage true (in jacketed bullets and to some extent in cast bullets), medium calibers, at medium speeds, with medium to heavy for caliber bullets, kill reliably in a hunting situation.

I took a few classes in college where we studied the effects of gunshot wounds. In slow motion footage in simiulated medium, the "shock wave" and the secondary wound cavitation caused by bullet impact are a real thing, it can be seen. The question is, how much of the forward pressure wave ahead of the bullet is disturbing tissue. There is a definate difference between tearing tissue (which is elastic) and that will essentially go back to form, versus cutting/removing tissue (such as would happen with WFN slow bullets) which creates a completely different wound.

When ballistic tips first came out, I tried them in a .308 on whitetail deer and gave them up. My preferred hunting method is still hunting/stalking. I found when I made close up shots on deer with ballistic tips (under 50 yards, typically bow type ranges 25-40 yards) the bullet would rip through a lot of tissue and not "expand" (I'd say blow up) until it had passed through the vitals and impacted the offside of the animal. At which point I had softball sized wound cavities. Yes, it destroyed meat (something I'm not fond of, but I'll sacrifice some meat for finding an animal), but it was amazing how far an animal could go with such a wound. I NEVER had that kind of a response with slower caliber standard expanding bullets (.30-30s, .45-70, .35 WCF, .348 WCF, etc).

So I would essentially say, at least in theory, you are correct in that there may be a "gray area" where you aren't generating enough velocity to create a large enough "shockwave" to tear tissue and (as opposed to just penetrating, I'm talking causing primary tissue destruction, not secondary that closes due to elasticity), yet it's too fast to "cut" with the WFN.

This is one reason why the old timers used round nose designs (for better penetration) and softer alloys (albeit at slower speeds). Within the limitations of cast bullets and studing older material and talking to folks that work with softer alloys, they have their place in hunting.

Bottom line, I dont' think any one nose design, alloy hardness, bullet diameter, etc., is applicable to all applications. Same issue is true with jacketed bullets too. But then, I also have considerable more experience with jacketed bullets than cast.

[shotman]

Two things here. No 1 a double lung shot with a 460 would not leave any lungs. I hit a deer through top of back at about 80yds and exit hole was 4in. No2 If you hunt with a ML and round ball you dont have to track a wounded prey. I have never had one run. so that would support the" less is better" idea.

[44man]

I had to learn the hard way because the large meplat was so effective for me. I figured faster would be even better but they failed unless bone was hit.
So, yes, I will be using 50-50 WW and pure with a hollow point this coming season.
Shotman, it was the boolit and load he was using that kind of matches what I have trouble with.
I have a friend in PA that used the factory load in his .460 on a deer at 140 yards. The offside shoulder was completely gone.
Insanelupus, very well said and exactly mirrors what I found.
I see the results of too much gun here every year because neighbors insist on 7mm and .300 mags for 40 yards. I have to help find deer that have gone as far as a mile with holes big enough to stuff a watermellon in. No blood trails after 50 to 100 yards.
A bad hit with all of that power is worse then anything. Last season I found a small, dead deer that was shot on the other property at least 1/2 mile away. she was blown up and dragging guts.
I made a bad gut shot on a deer with my .45 once and she laid right down and died.
Which gun do I trust more if I screw up a shot or the deer moves at trigger break?

[sheepdog]

I'm no big hunter but wouldn't you think a slower velocity would support a nice pure lead LWC or HBWC in a nice dense grain that would spread like chewing gum when it hit?

If I had to pick what to get shot with its not a hyper velos like a 220 swift that I worry about, its the slow 500 grain 45/70 that scares the begeez out of me.

[BD]

I don't know the answer, but I'm interested in the question. I'm working on cast loads for the .450 Bushmaster. So far accuracy seems to come with 300 grainers at about 1,850 fps.
BD

[MTWeatherman]

44man,

I've got 40 years behind a .300 Winchester and don't believe I've ever lost an animal...so can't address any lack of blood trails. Few have taken more than a few steps after being hit so trailing hasn't been an issue. Where were those animals you are referring to hit with that .300 Mag? I'm careful with my shots but invariably take lung shots when having a broadside opportunity. I've missed a few...notably antelope (small animals and range become an issue) and luckily didn't take a leg off as a result but most years I connect with the first shot and it's down. Not bragging...just saying I try my best to only take shots I'm confident of. I've taken elk, deer, mountain goat, bighorn sheep, and antelope...a significant amount of all except the goat and sheep. My experience is significant and tells me velocity is a plus not a minus when it comes to quick kills with j bullets... not the reverse. That assumes a correctly constructed bullet...I use Nosler partitions. Although I believe the .30-30 to be an underrated cartridge when shot placement is correct, I have enough experience to show me a .300 puts animals down faster with a lung shot...they frequently travel a short distance with the .30-30.

That said, my experience with large caliber hard cast bullets is much more limited. I've taken deer with a .44 cast and that's it. I bow to your experience here on lower velocity being more effective and will offer another theory for consideration.

With a hard cast bullet, given equal weight and caliber, meplat size and velocity are the factors affecting tissue damage and thus "killing power". Large meplat ...much tissue damage, round nose bullet ... much less damage. Medium meplat falls in between. Effective cast hunting bullets have large meplats for that reason. At higher velocities, there well may be enough energy to destroy the edge of the meplat shortly after initial impact...producing a reduced meplat size on the path through vital organs. With a lower velocity bullet, that meplat remains pretty much intact. So, with the higher velocity bullet, there is less energy dump in the vital organs of the animal than with the lower velocity one. Meplat size overrides the effect of velocity.

[montana_charlie]

I have always used 7mm Rem Mag as my big game cartridge. Have owned several rifles, but always the same caliber. And, I always use the Nosler 160 grain Partition bullet.
So, I feel like I have a working understanding of it's capabilities under most circumstances.

It's not a hyper-velocity round, but it doesn't dawdle along, either.
Comparing results on long shots with those in short range hits, I came to the conclusion long ago that there is such a thing as 'too fast'.

I assume the same applies to all cartridges when performance on game is the criterion.

CM

[44man]

I'm no big hunter but wouldn't you think a slower velocity would support a nice pure lead LWC or HBWC in a nice dense grain that would spread like chewing gum when it hit?

If I had to pick what to get shot with its not a hyper velos like a 220 swift that I worry about, its the slow 500 grain 45/70 that scares the begeez out of me.

I could slow the gun way down but it has a 1 in 14" twist and likes what I shoot. I have been working with softer stuff but fliers increase. Those shorten my range. I think some skidding is coming in with a softer alloy. Pretty hard to jerk a soft boolit into a spin with that rate.
I have a lot of heavy boolit molds but not much in the way of a hunting boolit. Those would slow the velocity. I just have not had time to work with them. But making them soft might still not work because the inertia is increased and they might skid worse since they are all PB.

[sheepdog]

I could slow the gun way down but it has a 1 in 14" twist and likes what I shoot. I have been working with softer stuff but fliers increase. Those shorten my range. I think some skidding is coming in with a softer alloy. Pretty hard to jerk a soft boolit into a spin with that rate.
I have a lot of heavy boolit molds but not much in the way of a hunting boolit. Those would slow the velocity. I just have not had time to work with them. But making them soft might still not work because the inertia is increased and they might skid worse since they are all PB.

That is quite a pickle. Maybe the two alloy solution? Softer lead at the front then a hardtail on it with a gas check?

[243winxb]

Shock is what puts deer down where they stand. This takes 2700fps & 90Gr bullet, more is better. The velocity is the most important factor. Shock. An arrow can go thru the center of the heart and the deer still can run 200 yds. A 30WCF can go right thru and the deer gives no reaction what so ever that its hit good. If you hit the spine, or a neck shot, all work well. Heavy slow bullets punch a hole, penetrate deeply. High speed soft point bullets create shock to the animals nervous system.

[Leftoverdj]

Too many theories: too little data.

[StarMetal]

Well I wrote this before, but here it is again. A big game hunter and shooter was noting the difference of two Elk shot with the same load from a 338 Win Mag. As stated they were shot with the same load and rifle, at the same distance, at the same angle, hitting the same spot on the animal. One went down right there. The other ran quite some distance. He had forensic doctors examine both and asked them why the difference. By the way they were heart shots. On the one that went right down the doctors found that the blood vessels in the brain of that animal had burst destroying the brain. On the animal that ran some distance they found no such damage in the brain. So the question arises why? They said that their are two stages to the heart beat. The one where the hearts pumps out the blood and the other where it retracts getting ready to cycle again. They believe the elk that went right down was shot at the moment the heart was pumping out blood, thus increasing it's pressure dramatically and bursting the blood vessels in the brain, being they are delicate to start with. That plus the heart destroyed shut the animal down immediately. Makes sense to me, what do you fellows think? Yes I know it doesn't explain shots to other organs or areas.

Joe

[sheepdog]

Shock is what puts deer down where they stand. This takes 2700fps & 90Gr bullet, more is better. The velocity is the most important factor. Shock. An arrow can go thru the center of the heart and the deer still can run 200 yds. A 30WCF can go right thru and the deer gives no reaction what so ever that its hit good. If you hit the spine, or a neck shot, all work well. Heavy slow bullets punch a hole, penetrate deeply. High speed soft point bullets create shock to the animals nervous system.

Buffalo is alot more animal than a deer (up to 2500lb) with alot tougher hide. Yet reportedly the slowest loads of 45/70 dropped them instantly in a single shot everytime. The guys skinning them brought in teams and kept them in nice clusters this way for convience. That from a boolit going 1200fps at 500gr.

I don't subscribe to the fast and light theory. Seen too many hogs run off from even well placed .223 softpoints but I've never seen the old 30-30 softpoint lose to a whitetail. Temporary wound cavities and hydrostatic shock are hotly debated theories fought by smarter folks than us and still not settled.

Don't get me wrong, I'd trust my 30-06 before a 45/70 but slow and steady can still win the race.

[BABore]

Well I wrote this before, but here it is again. A big game hunter and shooter was noting the difference of two Elk shot with the same load from a 338 Win Mag. As stated they were shot with the same load and rifle, at the same distance, at the same angle, hitting the same spot on the animal. One went down right there. The other ran quite some distance. He had forensic doctors examine both and asked them why the difference. By the way they were heart shots. On the one that went right down the doctors found that the blood vessels in the brain of that animal had burst destroying the brain. On the animal that ran some distance they found no such damage in the brain. So the question arises why? They said that their are two stages to the heart beat. The one where the hearts pumps out the blood and the other where it retracts getting ready to cycle again. They believe the elk that went right down was shot at the moment the heart was pumping out blood, thus increasing it's pressure dramatically and bursting the blood vessels in the brain, being they are delicate to start with. That plus the heart destroyed shut the animal down immediately. Makes sense to me, what do you fellows think? Yes I know it doesn't explain shots to other organs or areas.

Joe

Great! Now I'll have to put a 36x scope on my 338 so I can see the heartbeat. Then I can use my range finder and ballistic data charts to determine exact range and time of flight. Then I can put one in the heart at the right moment.

The last cow elk I got with my 338 was DRT. Put the CH's just behind the shoulder and touched it off. Of course my butt decided to slide down the hill while I had the rifle rested over a downed pinion pine. Butt went down, bbl went up. Elk took the bullet just under the spine. Elk sammich!

[felix]

Joe, that's why head shots always win. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Great! Now I'll have to put a 36x scope on my 338 so I can see the heartbeat. Then I can use my range finder and ballistic data charts to determine exact range and time of flight. Then I can put one in the heart at the right moment.

The last cow elk I got with my 338 was DRT. Put the CH's just behind the shoulder and touched it off. Of course my butt decided to slide down the hill while I had the rifle rested over a downed pinion pine. Butt went down, bbl went up. Elk took the bullet just under the spine. Elk sammich!

Bruce,

You mean to tell me you don't have a 36x on your 338? Geesh, no wonder you can't shoot small cast groups at high velocity! bwahahahahahahahahaha

Joe