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Thread: Penetration Testing and HIGH RPMs? :grin:

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Penetration Testing and HIGH RPMs? :grin:

    I was absent from here for about 6 months while I was off doing MANY of my unscientific tests. I felt that I could NOT be distracted by this board which so often happens with others of varying opinions. So .... fortunately and unfortunately for many here, here is one of my tests.

    The test began involving 4" and 6.5" 44 S&Ws for hardness requirements, both with throats smaller than bore diameter (that is another thread all to itself) and penetration.

    From this testing, I got another wild idea to try. And that is the subject here. RPMS can not be measured. BUT!!! RPMS are not necessary in a vacuum. Only when traveling through some medium, such as air ............... OR animal flesh. Thus, the depth of "accurate" penetration could be thought of as a reflection of "actual RPMS" and only "IF" deformation could be controlled. So how could I see this?

    The idea was to use increased resistance to slow penetration without causing ANY deformation. That leaves RPMs as the sole factor for stable, penetration depth. This is too hard to do at high velocity, so lets slow it down and soften the slugs. I used a 30 caliber rifle for this so that it would make it easier for others to understand and correlate it to as we went along.

    I mixed up some ballistic gelatin provided by a friend in long plastic (double bread) bags so that I could see inside. I used one milk jug with water in front of the gelatin for each shot to slow the projectile uniformly with the intent to stop it in the gelatin tubes. It took a lot of working out the kinks, but what I eventually did, I used Linotype for the nose portion of a pure lead body bullet utilizing my 160gr, GC, 30 caliber bullet design with a 60% meplat. This was to prevent mushrooming from contaminating the results. All of this was fired from my 30-06 at 50 yards which is unimportant, except it establishes a base line.

    Accuracy levels were no real consideration here either. I say that with the understanding other than what the "best" accuracy level was and at what velocity level that occurred. I was using 4759 powder, magnum primers, and Dacron to maintain shot to shot velocity consistency with a chronograph in front of the impact area. What happened during this testing was an epiphonony on RPMs.

    Accuracy peaked between 1150 and 1200 fps. It began to deteriorate rapidly above this level where I shot it up to 1600 fps. 1600 fps was the stopping point because accuracy was about 2 1/2" which was the limit for a guaranteed hit in my gelatin tubes. And the nose also began to exhibit signs of deformation which would contaminate these results.

    What happened was amazing and a truly key point!!!. Penetration peaked, when accuracy peaked. Now why?

    As velocity increased from the 1200 fps level, more violent reaction was noted in the water action at the jug resulting from the increased velocity level strike, but penetration was no deeper at 1500 fps than it was at 1200 fps. And at 1600 fps, penetration actually declined. No mushrooming was present. So was RPMs actually declining as velocity increased?

    At 1400 fps, the penetration was clearly no longer straight line. The slug began to veer off coarse and became RPMy looking as it traveled. At 1600 fps, the penetration was truly erratic and the slug even began to exit the side of the gelatin tube on a few of the shots.

    Next I hardened the slug. This time I used Linotype, just to ensure that there was enough of a difference in hardness to prove my theory. The Linotype bullets at 1600 fps were vastly more accurate when shot at the target. That's not news, but they mysteriously began traveling on a straight path again through the ballistic gelatin. Some even began to exit the back of the tube which was another 4.5" of bullet travel over the soft bullet with the hard nose, peak penetration.

    Why? Deformation was zero. Velocity was the same adjusted by load and chronograph. In fact, the lino bullet was 6.2 grains lighter than the pure lead slug used at the beginning of these tests. So, from a reality standpoint, the Linotype slug should have penetrated less material, not more. The answer? Increased RPMs baby! Increased?

    When accuracy peeks, (at the first accuracy point) RPMs peak. RPMs remain the same for a short velocity increase and then eventually they begin to decline as velocity continues to increase. The guess is that the bullet fails farther and farther back on the design to induce rotation upon exit also resulting in a poor accuracy reducing result. But I don't have to be right in my guess, only dispel theory or wives's tales. I suppose that if pushed hard enough, or with low enough rifling, that RPMs could theoretically go to ZERO. This makes the discussion of RPMs a low effect phenomenon, not a HIGH one. And this turns the discussion to a lead strength issue and the ability of the gun to impart rotation issue during a controlled launch.

    So what does this explain or dispel that we deal with everyday on the board?

    Well this supports the old timers belief that the longest barrels were best for lead. And I suppose that this is because a fully accelerated bullet is experiencing no rotational acceleration at muzzle exit. So, in effect, it has higher RPMs because it is in effect stronger as it leaves the bore. It also explains the use of slower twist rates adding to bullet strength or launch capability. As it turns out, the slower twist rate barrel can be launching at the higher RPMs when compared to a faster twist rate barrel at the same velocity. Particularly in barrels that are too short in relation to case capacity to bore diameter to achieve enough acceleration before exit. It also supports low muzzle pressure upon exit and the use of faster powders for lead which can be said to be sort of the same thing.

    It explains worn rifling height issues with older / worn barrels. It explains why different people can shoot the same load at the same velocity inside what is commonly thought of to be the cast bullet (RPM) zone and still get different accuracy results. It explains the failure of PB designs at around certain velocity (RPM ) levels. It also supports old timers bullet design beliefs of wider base bands on their PB designs. There is much more here, but I have already lost many folks who will need to read this again and digest it accordingly if they truly ever can. Cause it is cast boolit heresy.

    What does these tests dispel? Well it dispels the high RPM theory for causing wild trajectories beyond a certain point. Accuracy loss occurs ONLY because enough forward velocity is lost that stable flight is no longer possible from a " TOO LOW " RPM condition at the ballistic coefficient / wind resistance level it is traveling. It also dispels the matching bullet to twist rate theory, as a heavier bullet that goes slower than a lighter one, has more surface contact with the rifling to which to impart and maintain rotation / RPMs during acceleration .... at an equal bullet hardness. It helps to explains short barrel finickiness compared to longer barrels, especially in handguns.

    This unscientific testing (:grin) essentially turns the cast world upside down on many accepted issues. And while I freely admit that it doesn't explain everything, it doesn't have to. Only to force people with other theories to look to another coarse. It can serve as an example to the futility of scientific testing that results in a false conclusion. No matter how good or scientific a test really is. At least it can alter methods for those who will continue the search for truth which doesn't exist.

    There it is in a description of how it was conducted so that it can be repeated. Anyone care to offer an opinion on my methods or conclusion? Ahhhhhh please, somebody!
    Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    Looks very familiar, John! ... felix
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    If I understand what your saying, there may not be the rpm limit that has been suggested. That we are not actually getting the high rpms at higher velocity that theory would suggest because bullet strength is not there and the bullet is sliding and not getting the rpms a given twist velocity would suggest. If this is what you are saying, I agree. The reason I think this because when paper patched using the same alloy the rpm "limit" is much higher. How could this be if what you say is not true. I have been pondering this ever since I first read this rpm limit theory. Wondering why a paper patch that has no effect outside the barrel would allow much higher velocity, rpms and accuracy. I believe you have got it. Unstable bullets would not penetrate as well as stable ones.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master NHlever's Avatar
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    Hmmm, 1000 fps with a 1-12" twist is 60,000 fpm (feet per minute), and also 60,000 rpm. 2000 fps is 120,000 fpm, and 120,000 rpm. There is no speed point where this relationship changes as long as the bullet is strong enough to withstand the rotational forces against it. Rotational speed also diminishes much, much more slowly than the forward motion of a projectile. So, if you push a boolit faster than the strength of the alloy used will support you will get skidding, and less rpm than you would with a stronger boolit which is what you perhaps saw when you went from the soft body to linotype. Even jacketed bullets will exhibit skidding if pushed hard enough, quickly enough. The longer one can take to bring the boolit up to rpm (ie longer barrels) the softer the alloy can be. A slower twist helps too, but will not create the same rpm as a faster twist unless the boolit is pushed faster. There is no point in a boolits acceleration where rpm's stabilize, or decline......... while it is in the barrel being spun. As soon as a boolit exits the bore, it starts to decelerate, and so the rpm will drop, but at a much slower rate. Yes, bullets that are spinning very fast, and are stable penetrate deeply, and straight. Look at how well the little 6.5's. and 7mm's did in Africa for proof of that. Fast twists also aid expansion as shown by the old Colt .38 special revolvers when compared to the S&W"s.

    Interesting subject.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    Folks who have killed many deer will claim truthfully that a 32Special (Winnie levergun 16 twist) will kill more quickly than a 30-30 (Winnie levergun 12 twist). The velocity of each is practically the same. The width of the fish-tail after deer entry would be more than the mushroom of the 30-30? Perhaps an appropriate conclusion for the observance.

    Yes, indeed, boolits strip. We need a chrono that can accurately measure both speeds, foward and rotational. ... felix
    felix

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Rockydog's Avatar
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    BA, Very interesting theory. Would this theory then explain the accuracy of one powder vs another? A powder with a slower curve to peak pressure might allow a bullet to accelerate more smoothly and hold the rifling, gaining RPM. Almost like a car geared to control wheel spin and apply maximum friction to the road accelerating faster than a car of the same horsepower with uncontrolled wheel spin.
    To throw another variable in the mix; what happens when you use a gain twist barrel? Or preengrave the bullet by front loading through a false muzzle like they used to do with Schutzen rifles. I believe I read that, even after cartridges were common, they front loaded these and used the cartridges only for the powder charge. I would think that this would tend to get the bullet spinning without so much tendency to slip. Perhaps they knew something we forgot. RD
    Last edited by Rockydog; 06-27-2009 at 09:32 PM. Reason: spelling

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    RD, please allow me to interject here, so John can expound on my thingie as well.

    Yes, the acceleration curve is the most important aspect in controlling the boolit's faithfulness to follow the path. Altering the powder and primer combo changes the curve, as well as seating pressure. Best to seat off of the lands until a satisfactory power and primer combo can be found to work in the ballpark. Neck friction (BR guns) should be slight to slip-fit during the selection. If no combo can be found, then seating friction (width/length) should be increased to allow for a slower powder.

    The problem with customary gain twist is with the deciphering of the gain rate. Using your car example, you will note that most drag racers blow the engine sometime after "ignition" and somewhere unpredictable down the strip (barrel). However, a quarter inch difference between the chamber and the muzzle can be a benefit, as shown in some BR matches. The technique keeps the rifling machine honest in not creating any accidental reverse twist which is catastrophic accuracy wise.

    ... felix
    felix

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    What does these tests dispel? Well it dispels the high RPM theory for causing wild trajectories beyond a certain point. Accuracy loss occurs ONLY because enough forward velocity is lost that stable flight is no longer possible from a " TOO LOW " RPM condition at the ballistic coefficient / wind resistance level it is traveling. It also dispels the matching bullet to twist rate theory, as a heavier bullet that goes slower than a lighter one, has more surface contact with the rifling to which to impart and maintain rotation / RPMs during acceleration .... at an equal bullet hardness. It helps to explains short barrel finickiness compared to longer barrels, especially in handguns

    john:
    as you know ,this is exactly the opposite of how i have/had it figured.
    i KNEW and still do that there is a relationship here between rpm and momentum,but you are showing the opposite of what i thought happened.
    the rpm helping effect how a j-bullet works in an animal i put together long ago as i shoot the 7x57 and it's variations and rely on this to work with a lighter bullet at higher launch spped and still keep ranges short for pass through with expansion.
    but for cast with accuracy this is gonna take a bit of thought and retesting.
    damn you.

  9. #9
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    Bass

    I am sure that in all my cast boolit experience I have never seen a boolit that was completely striped by the rifling in a gun bore. Maybe if the grooves were completely filled with lead this could happen.
    I suspect that in a moderately clean bore that the boolit will always exit the muzzle with the spin and velocity in sync with each other. I have seen the evidence that a boolit did skid some when starting in the rifling but at some point it had to follow the rifling twist. Otherwise the boolit would come out of the barrel bore diameter rather than filling the grooves.
    Perhaps I am just not shooting my boolits outside the box?
    Splain some more how the boolit can spin at a different speed when the velocity stays the same.
    This ain't April 1st. is it?

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  10. #10
    Boolit Man Nelsdou44's Avatar
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    I'm with Rockydog and Felix about acceleration. After the boolit becomes engraved into the barrel acceleration is the force that strips the boolit and as I gather from Bass's experiment, rotational velocity suffers.

    I see it as a pitcher's arm accelerates through the throw his grip on the ball slips and the ball is released with less spin and subsequent loss of control.

    You can over-accelerate a boolit with slower powders too despite keeping the chamber pressure under the limit of the alloy. I've done it and have been scratching my head about it until I read Bass's post. Lessening acceleration as the boolit approaches the muzzle and lower muzzle pressure is a good thing.

    Nels

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    I'm not sure you can tell by looking at a recovered bullet when or where in the acceleration that it stripped or how much. If pressure is high enough it could be bumping swageing what ever you want to call it and still skidding out the end of the barrel. You can take one of the bullets that starts loseing accuracy at say 2000 fps and paper patch it and gain several hundred fps with accuracy. So how does the same bullet shoot good at a much higher rpm (much higher than the supposed rpm limit) just by riding paper down the barrel. The only answer I can come up with is that it's not skidding and the added rpm adds stability and accuracy.

  12. #12
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    I'm not sure you can tell by looking at a recovered bullet when or where in the acceleration that it stripped or how much. If pressure is high enough it could be bumping swageing what ever you want to call it and still skidding out the end of the barrel. You can take one of the bullets that starts loseing accuracy at say 2000 fps and paper patch it and gain several hundred fps with accuracy. So how does the same bullet shoot good at a much higher rpm (much higher than the supposed rpm limit) just by riding paper down the barrel. The only answer I can come up with is that it's not skidding and the added rpm adds stability and accuracy.

  13. #13
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    Interesting. I'm a fence sitter of the RPM theory. I think there is an RPM limit for a given material. I'm sure most of us are familiar with the lightly jacketed 22 cal bullets vaporizing when pushed too fast. I'm just not sure how that relates to lead alloys and where the boundaries are.
    What Bass says makes sense, but so do a lot of other theories.

    Could this be another of those, "Well, in this particular situation this happens, but not always..." things?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Whitespider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass Ackward View Post
    When accuracy peeks, (at the first accuracy point) RPMs peak. RPMs remain the same for a short velocity increase and then eventually they begin to decline as velocity continues to increase... I suppose that if pushed hard enough, or with low enough rifling, that RPMs could theoretically go to ZERO.
    I don’t buy your conclusion. Unless the projectile is skidding, or stripping, through the barrel that would not be possible. If it’s stripping enough to reduce rotation, your barrel would be loaded with lead deposits.

    Projectile rotational speed (at muzzle exit) is directly proportional to muzzle exit velocity, that’s just simple physics. A projectile exiting a 1:12 barrel at 1000 FPS is rotating at 12,000 revolutions per second, or 720,000 RPM, at 2000 FPS it’s rotating at 24,000 revolutions per second, or 1,440,000 RPM. This simple fact can not be, according to the laws of physics, challenged or disputed. A projectile will begin to shed velocity and rotational speed as soon as it exits the muzzle; but at your 50-yard test range the rotational loss would be almost nil, even with a badly deformed projectile (time of flight would be way, way, way less than a ¼ second).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bass Ackward View Post
    What happened was amazing and a truly key point!!!. Penetration peaked, when accuracy peaked. Now why?
    At 1400 fps, the penetration was clearly no longer straight line. The slug began to veer off coarse...
    The Linotype bullets at 1600 fps were vastly more accurate when shot at the target... they mysteriously began traveling on a straight path again through the ballistic gelatin.
    Why? Deformation was zero. Velocity was the same... In fact, the lino bullet was 6.2 grains lighter... So, from a reality standpoint, the Linotype slug should have penetrated less material, not more. The answer? Increased RPMs baby!
    No, I don’t believe increased rotational speed produced deeper penetration; I believe projectile stabilization produce deeper penetration.

    The rotational speed imparts terrific centrifugal force to the material of the projectile, and if it’s soft enough it will deform and destabilize (or wobble) in flight. This deformation is (or can be) very tiny, and with the elasticity of lead, could return to round as rotation speed decreases. As velocity increased (adding more centrifugal force and deformation), and accuracy decreased, the projectile was hitting the water jug at a less perfect point-forward trajectory, further destabilizing it. In effect, the projectile was entering the gelatin at a slightly sideways profile, exposing more of its side surface to resistance, which would slow it faster and produce directional changes.

    The linotype projectile, made of stronger material, was able to withstand a higher centrifugal force before deformation occurs. This kept it at a more point-forward attitude (better accuracy) at higher velocity, resulting in the straight line deeper penetration.

    At 1600 FPS, and at only 50-yards, both the pure lead and linotype projectiles were spinning at the same RPMs when they hit the water jug. It was the stabilization/point-forward factor that produced the straight-line deeper penetration.

    Hey, but what do I know?

  15. #15
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    As long as velocity is increased, spin will always increase. There is no velocity point where a bullet will lose spin when velocity is being increased as long as the rifling is engaged.
    Long barrels were popular with black powder and overbore magnums to allow all of the powder to burn in the barrel with less powder leaving the muzzle to burn in the air. More powder adds to the bullet weight also and can effect velocity. Add more and more black powder to say a 45-70 and velocity will decrease. This is something that can be seen using Pyrocrap. Compress more and more in the case and you will see chunks exit the muzzle like flares. Velocity goes way down.
    A barrel can get too long for the powder charge. Then bore friction will slow the bullet if the powder is no longer burning and gas expansion has stopped.
    Penetration is affected by spin because of it's effect on stability. Over spin and as soon as a bullet contacts anything it can veer or start to tumble. Bass is correct there because the most accurate load for the gun and bullet will track the straightest.
    Bullet shape has a greater effect on penetration and how straight it travels. Pointed bullets are more effected by over spin. A round nose is better and the best will be a flat nose if spin is right. How a nose is deformed is the worst if it does not deform evenly.
    Velocity has a great effect and normally the faster a given bullet hits the less penetration you get because of increased pressure build up in front of it. Even worse if there is expansion.
    We have shot many things with revolver boolits with large meplats and never had any go off course. I shot a WFN through 10, one gallon jugs of water and the hole out of the last jug was centered. Even shot through a 16" tree or an animal shows a straight path.
    I shot this boolit through 37" of wet phone books and the path was straight.
    But then the faster I drive these boolits, the less damage is done in deer but I never lose enough penetration to see because the boolit does not deform. The pressure wave in front of the flat nose is moving tissue out of the way, unlike a different shaped bullet or one that expands and slows.
    There is just a lot more to this then Bass has found. I have learned more by letting professor deer show me.
    Bass is a little off with some of his thoughts.

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    Whitespider has the correct view of this.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    The word strip must have consistent meaning here. Strip means the projectile goes through an interrupting change in twist force, however small, which is not commensurate with the acceleration of the projectile at that instant. ... felix

    This explains the reasoning behind "seasoning" a barrel, and why some barrels will print to point of aim on the first shot, and others won't. This is also why some lubes will shoot "screamers" with a certain load and others won't. ... felix
    Last edited by felix; 06-28-2009 at 11:14 AM.
    felix

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy mrbill2's Avatar
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    Bullet Penetration

    Whitespider on the money.

    From Hatchers Notebook
    First Picture: Penetration of 32.5 inches of oak by 3006 bullet weighting150 grs. at 2400 fps. Range 200yds.
    The range was long enough so that the bullet was sufficiently stable to continue point first and thus give good penetration.

    Second Picture: Penetration of 11.250 inches in oak by 3006 bullet at 2400 fps. Range 50 feet. The penetrastion is mush less than achieved at longer ranges. Reason is that at the short range, the bullet has not settled down to a stable flight, and when it encountered the resistance of the oak it was yawed badly, and rapidly gave up all its energy.

    Mr. Bill
    Last edited by mrbill2; 08-12-2010 at 08:46 PM.

  19. #19
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    Wonderful guys.
    Velocity can be a friend or an enemy depending on the gun, bullet and distance. There is no answer that works for all.
    All the testing we did was for fun and means nothing in the real world of hunting.

  20. #20
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    I call BS here.

    Whitespider and 44 Man have splained it to you.
    In my opinion, the most important thing to strive for is to present your boolit to the world, STABLE, at the exit from the muzzle of the gun. Of course it must remain or be stable at the target. In between don't matter.
    If the boolit strips in the rifling it is not right. The powder is not right. The twist is not right. The speed is not right. The size is not right. The alloy is not right. The lube is not right. The boolit length is not right.
    All these things and more are interelated.
    Making and shooting cast boolits is a very exacting art/skill, if you want to do it well, and a lot of people just want to shoot cheap without all the effort and planning. I will always try to encourage new shooters and casters to start with proven boolits and loads so they don't get discouraged at the begining.
    Kenny Wasserburger and other good shooters would seem to have a handle on making and shooting cast boolits and I am sure they would tell you that the trigger jerk has a lot to do with the whole process. That is even after you get the load as good as anyone can.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check