357 loads in .38 cases? why not?

[Rocky Raab]

I see no text to go with the thread title, but if that's the sum total of your question, here goes:

Because with less case volume in a 38 Special case, a 357 load would send pressures way, WAY beyond even the already high 45,000 psi or so of normal magnum loads.

Your gun's life expectancy would be precisely one shot.

[atr]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
No 357 load in a 38 case......NO NEVER !!!
just think of what will happen if that load geta fired in a revolver only made to take the pressures of the 38 special.
Yikes what a dumb thought

[jhrosier]

Anybody want to guess why the 358156 has two crimp grooves?

Jack

[wiljen]

I load 357 level loads in 38 length cases because the 358429 will not chamber in model 27-28 S&W if loaded to the crimp groove in 357 cases. The good news is these are too long to fit in 38 specials due to the OAL. I also clear mark the boxes they are stored in so if I'm gone someone else will know what they are.

[Onlymenotu]

BECAREFUL OUT THERE....THIS IS YOUR WARNING<--- not a new idea.... good luck

[Terrier]

In the 50's and 60's there was an article in the gun magazines every few months about getting 357 preformance out of 38 Special cases. Please note: this is not using 357 data in 38 cases. Back then it was in vogue to hot rod every case there was, sometimes leading to disaster. We have so much more information and so many more tools at our disposal than back then. Such work is best left to the very experienced reloader. The best advise is stick to the reloading manuals.
Terrier

[bowhunter]

Why do people want such a hot load anyway? What are they trying so hard to kill other than themselves?

[Terrier]

Again going back to the 50' and 60's, all the cop shops and target shooters were generating tons of empty .38 Special cases and you had to pay good money for the .357 cases. Empty .38's were in about the same boat then as 9MM's were before the great compnent shortages of 2009.
Terrier

[Terrier]

Again going back to the 50' and 60's, all the cop shops and target shooters were generating tons of empty .38 Special cases and you had to pay good money for the .357 cases. Empty .38's were in about the same boat then as 9MM's were before the great component shortages of 2009.
Terrier

[Recluse]

It's called a +P+ and it's a hot load.

There was a reason that for a long time, +P+ loads were only available to law enforcement. Manufacturers hoped that agency and department armorers were smart enough to know which officers/agents were carrying what weapons and what weapons could handle what (hot) loads.

Secondly, I carried 9mm +P+ rounds in the 9mm weapons I was either issued or carried. Still carry that load in my carry 9mm. BUT, I sure don't practice with those rounds. They will eat most guns up in short order--exception being Glocks (and maybe today's other plastic guns that have a bit more flex and give). I've even seen H&K's torn up after getting a steady diet of overly hot ammo.

I concern myself more with the projectile for defensive or hunting purposes. I then match the powder and charge to get the ballistics I need/desire. And in over thirty years of reloading, I've never needed--nor desired--to have a handloaded .38 Special be that hot.

I do, however, regularly load up TL158SWC to +P velocities for use in my L-frame Smiths. But again, there is a difference between firing a +P .38 out of a long-barrel L-frame revolver versus firing a +P+ (or hotter) round out of an old J-frame or early-model K-frame and doing it consistently.

[azrednek]

I've seen two 38 revolvers at gun shows that had fired 357 loads in a 38 case. Both would have been as deadly for the shooter as the target. I used to do it but after seeing a Colt OP with a broken top strap and a big chunk out of the cylinder there is just no way. The Colt was shot with loads he inherited from his brother. Been many years but I believe the seller told me the 38's he pulled after the mis-hap were loaded with something like 14 grs of 2400. The other one, an Armenius brand revolver. The seller said he put the 357 loads in 38 cases and it was forgotten about and he shot them a few years later. There is some good data out there on 38+P loads, consider that instead.

[crowbeaner]

The hottest loads I put in a 38 case are 11 grains of 2400 under a 358429 and the Skeeter Skelton combination of 13.5 of 2400 and the 358156 seated out and crimped in the lower groove. IF YOU LOAD THESE LOADS for yourself, use once fired cases, an ACCURATE POWDER MEASURE LIKE A UNIFLOW!!!!! and standard not magnum primers!!!!!!! The Skeeter load uses the HOLLOWPOINT VERSION of the 358156!!!!!IF YOU USE THE SOLID BOOLIT--- LOAD 12.5 grains!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

The hottest loads I put in a 38 case are 11 grains of 2400 under a 358429 and the Skeeter Skelton combination of 13.5 of 2400 and the 358156 seated out and crimped in the lower groove. IF YOU LOAD THESE LOADS for yourself, use once fired cases, an ACCURATE POWDER MEASURE LIKE A UNIFLOW!!!!! and standard not magnum primers!!!!!!! The Skeeter load uses the HOLLOWPOINT VERSION of the 358156!!!!!IF YOU USE THE SOLID BOOLIT--- LOAD 12.5 grains!!!!

Skeltons loads go back even a little further than his writings of the. I believe the 358156 was designed by Thompson fo jus this purpose. It was mostly for use in S&W 38/44 revolver which were made pre-.357. There were heavy 38/44 factory loads even. Those were heavy loads in .38 Specila cases and were marked on the boxes for use in the appropriate guns only. The loads with 358156 were to be seated out and the case mouth crimped in the second groove.

Back in the '70s there was a lot of .38 brass availabel and nott much .357 brass. The .38 Special was the darling of the FBI and most police agancies so as a young LEO I accumilated lots of it. I also had 2 .357s to feed and not much money to "waste" on .357 brass when I had thousands of .38s. Hence I put the 358156 to good use using the 12.5 gr load of 2400. The bullets were seated to the second crimp groove and offered a ready visual check so I never put one in a .38.

The pressures of such a load, while higher than +P .38s, is not such that it will probably not blow up a quality or medium size .38 revolver. The continued use would probably not do them much good though. A fellow reloader/LEO and I did put 50 shots through a 2" M10 S&W slated to be destryed (court order) held in a Ransom Rest. After the 50 shots of the 12.5 gr 2400/358156 it seemed absolutely no worse for wear. The M10 was then returned to the evidence locker and later destroyed via torch. I'm not advocating shooting these loads in a .38 Special, just reporting the facts of what happened when I did.

I never had a problem with such loads being put in .38s and I had and used just as .38s as .357s. The long seated 358156 is redily identifiable. I Really don't see any difference of these loads in .38 cases between the heavier 45 Colt loadings for Ruger or the heavier loading for the Marlins and Ruger/Mausers in 45-70.

While I myself post cautions about overloading such cartridges I do not say "never, NOOOOO, the world will end if you do, etc. I always, as do most others, mention to be sure to keep such loads in the realm of pressures intended for the firearm used. I don't see the doomsday warnings as seen on this thread concerning those other cartridges. I have to ask; "what is the difference?" There isn't any difference is the answer.

Also I have loaded WW, R-P, Peters and WCC .38 cases many times with the loads mentioned and never had a problem with pressure. The .38 case is up to the pressures involved. While I've sufficient .357 cases these days I would not hesitate to use the 12.5 gr 2400/358156 load in .38 cases again if need be.

Larry Gibson

[GLL]

Jerry

[atr]

not saying the world will end but I still say NOOOOO.........its dangerous and irresponsible...

[hamour]

I verified to my own satisfaction that you could load heavy loads in a 38 case and feed it to a .357 mag revolver. Also colored the base and primer with a red magic marker for easy visual identification. It all worked well. This was in the early 70's.

If all I had was 38 cases and needed some powerful loads for a .357 mag revolver I would not be afraid of doing this, but I would make sure each and every round was marked in some way.

When .357 mag brass became available again I would shoot up the hot loaded .38s

[redneckdan]

Dimensionally .38 special and .357 magnum cases are much different. I can take the lyman 215gr SWC and seat it to the top crimp groove in a .38 special case with no bulges. Try to do the same thing in a .357 case and the case walls bulge out because the bullet base is hitting the bottom taper.

[GLL]

This is FACTORY 158 grain .38Special ammo for the old 34/44s that hits about 1200fps !

.38Special loads in the 1050-1200fps range are not uncommon for those of us who collect the N-frame S&W Outdoorsman & Heavy Duty revolvers.

Jerry

[dougader]

I have one box of 357 level loads in once-fired PMC nickel plated 38 Special brass. Blue Dot and 140 grain Hornady XTP's.

There are labels on 4 sides of the box warning that the loads are high pressure and only meant for 357 magnum revolvers. The primers are marked with red marking pen. They are in my locked tool box, and I don't own any 38 special revolvers.

The loads are safe in my gun. I suppose I better shoot them up before I die, because sure as shoot someone will discover them, see that they fit in their 38 revolver and figure they just have to try them out...

[Larry Gibson]

GLL

Collecting those 38/44s and the ammo for them is obviously "dangerous and irresponsible..." so you should send them to me

I wonder if any of the nay sayers realise that 12.5 gr of 2400 in a .38 Special case with a 358156 seated long generates .38 +P pressures (18-20,000 psi) or that it was a listed load in Lyman manuals (#42)? Or perhaps that Speer's # 7 manual lists 10.5 gr of 2400 under a 160 gr cast bullet seated to normal length (not seated long like a 358156). Seemed like the thing to do at the time.

Larry Gibson