can brass cartridge swage a soft lead boolit?

[M-Tecs]

thank you for the replies. If i can ask a few clarifying questions.
I am using a dillon SDB progressive press- Is there a way to use any of the expander dies with this press or does this require a using a different system or set up to allow this to occur? The dillon system uses a powder through die to size and deliver the powder so.. should i try to find a way to alter their powder funnel to allow the wadcutter to seat deeper and not be sized down - at this point I see making the funnel a bit longer and sizing it down to the correct dimensions (not sure how to do that just yet but I am not afraid to try)
again, thanks to all

Yes, the Dillon powder funnel can be custom made to function the same as the M-Die or the NEO system. I mostly load on a Dillon 650 or a Dillon Super 1050. I custom make my own powder funnels for my Dillons for cast bullets. I start from scratch with bar stock. For my method a lathe is required. I am considering producing them, however, due to other commitments that would not be till after the first of the year.

M-Die sizes can be found here http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_B...Die_Plugs.html also has some good diagrams for folks that haven't used them.

NOE available sizes here https://noebulletmolds.com/site/prod...r-plug-pistol/

Some more info here https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4542-...ring-reloading

You might be able to purchase what you want from here https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bu...-powder-funnel

[justindad]

I have swaged soft lead (50:50 SOWW:COWW) down by 0.001”, even after the brass was sized by an M style expander.

[TD1886]

I have swaged soft lead (50:50 SOWW:COWW) down by 0.001”, even after the brass was sized by an M style expander.

That's what I've been trying to tell members, but I get pooped on. Thanks for mentioning it.

I like a lot of Lyman products. Have quite a few of their dies and moulds. I don't like that the M dies works the neck excessively especially the part that the bullet fits in easily. That's expanded way more then a standard die does. Yes it's nice to set bullets in when the the sized, primed, and powdered, cases are ready to do and you can pluck them out and load at a faster speed safely. When I talk about flaring I'm not talking the case mouth looks like a trumpet! I'm talking about a very gradual flare, one where about 1/2 or little more of the gascheck fits in it. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you there's an expander in which the case neck won't sometimes swage your softer cast bullets down. The M die is a sales gimmick. Sometimes your seater dies doesn't iron out what the M die opened and you'll never convince me that the entire neck has a grip on the bullet by using it. But if you like them use them.

[M-Tecs]

so.. i thought the load was on the high end as well, that's what started this process. I dropped to 2.8gr or so and the key holing began so it's been a long slow walk up to try to get to the bottom of it all.
the firearm is FA 83- throat is .357. I size to .358 after powder coating
i pulled a wadcutter today and it has been sized down to .356 by the cartridge.
like i said in the OP, i cast some new boolits with a harder mix (ben 11-12) and shot them this morning- no key holing but i am still convinced that i can shoot better if i get this cartridge sized better (it measures .355 with a pin gauge).

can i ask.. if i am to proceed with a single stage and an NOE die- is it reasonable to size then move the cartridge back to the dillon to drop powder, insert the boolit, and crimp?
speaking of crimp- i have next to no crimp and seem to doing fine (this is after crimping far more to see what that did to my results -as expected, made things worse or certainly no better).

You have lots of options a how to get your brass from swagging your bullets undersize. As you noted harder bullets are one way. Most dies have expanders sized for jacketed bullet. They tend to be less than ideal for cast. M-dies, NOE's system, RCBS Cowboy dies all were created to address this type of under expanding the brass for soft lead bullets. Brass also work hardens effecting the amount of spring back.

For soft bullets in a revolver, I have my best results when the brass is expanded enough so soft bullets remain larger than the throats. Unless it's for a single shot rifle proper crimps are required.

You may also have throats that are tighter than your barrel.

[justindad]

Sometimes your seater dies doesn't iron out what the M die opened and you'll never convince me that the entire neck has a grip on the bullet by using it.

I share that concern. I flare just barely enough to start the boolit, so that if I turn the die a 1/16th of a turn out the boolit can no longer seat in the brass. So far, my results are better than using RCBS cowboy expander. I’m using a Redding version, which may or may not be an exact duplicate of the Lyman M die.
*
What I really need is a custom diameter expander from Buffalo Arms or NOE, both of which I believe have the M profile.

[TD1886]

I share that concern. I flare just barely enough to start the boolit, so that if I turn the die a 1/16th of a turn out the boolit can no longer seat in the brass. So far, my results are better than using RCBS cowboy expander. I’m using a Redding version, which may or may not be an exact duplicate of the Lyman M die.
*
What I really need is a custom diameter expander from Buffalo Arms or NOE, both of which I believe have the M profile.

Here's a pic of Redding's premium expander. I think it is a damn good and heck of a lot better then the Lymn M type.

[M-Tecs]

Here's a pic of Redding's premium expander. I think it is a damn good and heck of a lot better then the Lymn M type.

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

[TD1886]

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

I was a huge Redding fan, but to tell you the truth they are too expensive. Then again everything else is today too. Long ago when I first started loading the only dies I would buy were RCBS and Redding. When RCBS changed to what they have today I quit them. I feel there in the raw steel dies were better. So now I'm mainly with Redding.

You are correct about that expander that if it were the correct size for cast they would be the cat's meow. Thanks for posting.

[sv44]

You guys are amazing- i have learned a lot from the past few days- thank you.
I am headed to the range today to see how things go with the following:
1) harder alloy as mentioned above (proven already not to keyhole)
2) sized the bullets to 0.357 rather than 0.358 (my barrel measures at 0.357) - curious if the slightly smaller diameter will seat better considering my cartridge limitations with less swaging)
3)a handful of the softer lead sized slightly smaller to see if they still keyhole

plans for moving forward
1) a very generous member PM'd me and offered a sample of wadcutter brass to try
2) have ordered a noe expander plug to see what that does for me
3) if the harder cast still proves to not keyhole then back down on my powder

One question, and i think it was alluded to in one of the responses- if i forego sizing the cartridge at all what down stream problems will this cause me (assuming they will still fit my cylinder)?

again, i can't thank you all enough for the education and support

[wilecoyote]

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

...until today i was convinced it was just my OCD
I am relieved to hear an authoritative opinion on the matter.
thanks about your statement_

[justindad]

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

My Redding premium expanders are too small, but work just good enough with hard lead and my barrels. I called Redding about this because the premium expander is marketed for lead, but the tech mentioned they were only good for hardball lead. The only place I truly prefer a Redding die is for their crimp dies.

[uscra112]

For revolvers, size your bullets to match the cylinder throats, not the barrel. This can become problematic with certain brands, notably Ruger, who all too often deliver throats that are smaller than the barrel. Using gage pins is the proper way to measure throats, but a bore gage, or even pushing a soft bullet through with a dowel, will do in a pinch. Ideally the throats are uniform and .001" larger than the barrel, and your bullet will be .0005" larger than the throats as it sits in the case prior to firing.

A cylinder with too-small throats can be honed to correct the relationship. There is a guy here who does this. Name escapes me at the moment.

[StrawHat]

…A cylinder with too-small throats can be honed to correct the relationship. There is a guy here who does this. Name escapes me at the moment.

Doug Guy is the fellow.

Kevin

[TD1886]

My Redding premium expanders are too small, but work just good enough with hard lead and my barrels. I called Redding about this because the premium expander is marketed for lead, but the tech mentioned they were only good for hardball lead. The only place I truly prefer a Redding die is for their crimp dies.

That's interesting because I've always heard that cast, no matter the hardness, always used less tight neck tension. Powder Coat I was told use the same neck tension as for jacketed.

[justindad]

That's interesting because I've always heard that cast, no matter the hardness, always used less tight neck tension. Powder Coat I was told use the same neck tension as for jacketed.

Both could be true, if hard lead doesn’t swage but does lose accuracy. I don’t really know.

[sv44]

i have a set of pins, i will do just that- thank you and everyone who have offered to help

[sv44]

what a rabbit hole ..this is where I am:
1) i have fixed the keyhole issue using harder cast (bhn 11-12) vs 8 that i originally used- i plan to melt this down and try again.
2) i have the expanded some brass and shot this with the harder cast

for what I do I can't see much difference (shoot paper at relatively short distances- my shooting needs to improve but they are hitting where I point at this point. so i plan to move ahead and work on my shooting, if/when I need to get this better I certainly know the direction to take

Thanks everyone for your help with this

[BJung]

First, you need to slug your barrel to discover what your actual bore is. If you have and your bore is .357, you're okay. If you haven't, the easiest suggestion is to drill a shallow hole into a 2x4 scrap or whatever thick pick of wood you have with a hole slightly larger than .358 or so. Then, find a lead sinker, melt the lead and pour the molten lead into the hole. Then, dig it out, grease it, and drive it through your revolver with a wooden dowel. A metal dowel could damage your barrel.. Get a micrometer and measure the bore and add .001". That's your bullet diameter. Some shooters like .002" over. As for your bullet OD and case ID, I might give it .001" to not swage your bullet too much. I tend to crimp just enough to remove the flare. I tested seating depth once: 2.8gr with the bullet seated flush to the case and 3.1gr BE with the case mouth at the first greast groove. Accuracy was about the same and I'd give he slight edge to the latter. I'm shooting my .38 loads through a S&W Model 66. If it were me, I'd separate my bullets by weight.

What brass are you using? Separate your brass by headstamp. RP brass I measured has a .0135" wall thickness. A Win brass case I measured has a .0155" wall thickness. From my research, the best bhn for 38 special is 8-10 bhn. I forgot which headstamp has the thickest walls but I use those for my glue gun bullets because I can just insert the glue gun bullets into the case and it'll hold. If you want to try glue gun bullets, just buy the worse (1 star rated) glue rods that won't stick, some PAM, and a mold.

And last, yes, a brass case can swage a lead bullet. Use your kinetic bullet puller to pull out a cartridge and measure the bullet diameter.

[StrawHat]

NEVER use a wooden dowel to drive a bullet into or out of a bore. When it shatters, it is an absolute PITA to remove as the pieces wedge themselves into the bore. A brass or aluminum rod is what you need.

Kevin

[uscra112]

NEVER use a wooden dowel to drive a bullet into or out of a bore. When it shatters, it is an absolute PITA to remove as the pieces wedge themselves into the bore. A brass or aluminum rod is what you need.

Kevin

Beat me to it. Isn't a gunsmith alive who hasn't had a gun brought to him with a shattered wooden rod wedged in the bore!