I personally stick with the original 158 gr "standard" .357 loads. A k frame will take a lot of those without undue wear. Certainly more than I care to shoot in such a light gun.
For a lot of .357 shooting I use the 27-2. Just more mass to soak up the recoil. I truly worry about myself falling apart more than the guns!
Agree 100%.Originally Posted by Patrick L
I try to shoot mostly 158 grain cast loads between 1000 and 1100 FPS. A little more than 38 spl. Plus p bit way under max loads. I do occasionally shoot some max loads but not a whole lot. My 66 that I have owned since the early 1980s is still going strong after many thousands of rounds. They are not nearly as delicate as the internet banter would have you think. There is a great article by Brian Pearce in Handloader magazine number 248 August 2007 on this very subject. He shot 5000 full power loads through a 19 before it needed a little tune up. I think if you google that handloader issue , you can get pdf to that article(not sure), for free
Dogdoc
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Last edited by dogdoc; 08-26-2019 at 10:04 AM.
My cousin showed me a m19 this past weekend. 6" barrel, 3 T's, beautiful!
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I don't believe anyone has characterized the magnum K-frames as "delicate". They are not weak.
However, the K-frame was pushed a bit beyond its design limitations with the 357 magnum chambering.
Going back to my previous analogy:
"A 1/2" drive craftsmen ratchet will likely last a lifetime but if you start putting a 6' piece of pipe on it and applying all of your strength to it- ....you may find that it doesn't last as long. That's not a design flaw, it's just pushing it beyond what it was originally intended to do. "
The K-frame was never meant to be a magnum revolver and the fact that S&W was able to get it to work with a magnum chambering is testament to both the engineering skills of S&W and the strength of the K-frame platform to start with.
Like the 1/2" drive ratchet, you can probably get away with exceeding its design limits on occasion but if you do it everyday, you're going to break something.
Outpost's observations of K-frames failing during acceptance tests is all the evidence we need.
A S&W magnum K-frame will shoot a LOT of 38 Special +P rounds without a hiccup. They are not "delicate". The design was just never meant to be a full time magnum revolver. Like the Craftsman 1/2" drive ratchet, it will give yeoman like service for a lifetime but if you start pushing it beyond what it was designed to do, its lifespan is going to be shorter. It's not delicate, it just wasn't designed to handle those loads everyday.
I'm no ballistician, but as I recall, making the K frame shoot .357 158s at 1250-1300 was not what pushed it too far. Wasn't it the 125s and 110s at 1450 or more that was the straw that broke the camel's back, as they say?
I'm no ballistician either but I do wish someone could explain to me how 125 grain bullets @ 1450 fps are harder on a revolver than 158 grain bullets @ 1300. I'm not exactly questioning the statement but if accurate, I don't understand it.
John
W.TN
As I understand it, it isn't the ballistics that caused the problem. It was two things that came with the lighter bullet.
First one was a larger charge of powder that provided an increased volume of gas that heats up the forcing cone a bit more.
Second is the lighter bullet is somewhat shorter. Because of the distance between the cylinder face and the rifling(caused by the forcing cone taper), the 125 grain bullet can tip slightly before entering the rifling because it is not fully supported on both ends for a time. This causes increased stress on the parts of the barrel that are the weakest.
The 158 grain bullets are enough longer that they don't have the same issue of getting misaligned leaving the cylinder.
If this is incorrect, somebody please post and correct me.
Mostly correct, tazman. The lighter bullets hit the forcing cone at a higher velocity and had a larger mass of powder ALSO striking the cone area acting like a jackhammer and sandblaster in a one-two punch. Caused forcing cone erosion, cracking and attendant frame stretching/endshake. The 158 grain magnum loads were actually easier than the later, lighter bullet ammo. As an enthusiastic young copper in the late 70s, I shot a nice 19-3 into a mess this way. Corrected the endshake and traded it away. Wished I hadn't done that!
Colt's Manufacturing Company Armorer Instructor
Aimpoint USA L/E Pro Staff
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
The "how fast can I make this go" syndrome seems to be an affliction of the young and applies to more than just firearms. I know that I certainly had it.
I was fortunate not to destroy anything in the process.
Yes, that was pretty much how I understood it to work too. Most of my information came from the writings of Mas Ayoob, who did some pretty good analytical writings on the various Smith revolvers. He writes fro a LE perspective, and a lot of what he addressed was longevity as a duty gun. He got deep into the evolving policies and practices, such as training with the ammo you carry on duty, not "practice with .38s and carry .357s." Apparently this coincided with the introduction of the lighter, faster loads that were better manstoppers, ca. early 70s. K frame .357s started to really take a beating then. I don't know this for a fact, but I seem to recall the stainless M66 suffered more than the chrome moly M19. I could be wrong though.
I think as originally conceived in the 50s, the K .357 were adequately strong. Mine certainly has been. Easily 20,000+ .38s in the 30 years I've had it, maybe 1500(?) .357s certainly not excessive.
I must make a confession . It is hard , but today I shot some full magnums through BOTH a model 19 and a 66. After reading this thread, I feel dirty, BUT it was fun! Both forcing cones survived to fight another load. Sometimes the devil makes me do it.
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Bad Tad, bad Tad! Resurrecting old threads...
I believe this. ^^^^^
Is 23,500 psi a typo? I suppose not, since you are talking about a .38 Spl +P+ load.By the 1980s police training and doctrine had evolved to require officers to qualify with the same ammo they carried on the street. This resulted in greater wear and tear and shorter service life of the guns. The Model 19 was no exception and recommended practice was not to exceed a 50-50 ratio of standard pressure .38 Special to +P service loads. Standard pressure ammunition was still used for practice, but duty ammo used for actual qualification. Use of .357 ammunition was still recommended not to exceed the 6:1 ratio of .38 Special (combined of all types) to .357s.
It is normal for a K-frame .357 to develop end-shake after about 1000-1500 rounds of magnum ammunition. When end shake reaches about 0.002" the crane arbor would be stretched and adjusted to remove the end shake. This can only be done twice before cylinder gap opens to the service maximum of 0.009". At that point either the barrel must be set back (common gunsmith fix) or a (+) cylinder fitted (usual factory fix) to correct the condition. Usually by this time the cylinder will not carry up correctly in DA fire, and a wider hand is fitted to correct the DCU (doesn't carry up) condition. If the locking notches in the cylinder are also peened, the cylinder stop will be replaced with an oversized one.
Later Model 19s had a small flat machined on the barrel extension at the 6:00 position to clear the gas ring on the cylinder. The cylinder gas ring was moved from the yoke onto the cylinder of later guns to mitigate cylinder binding with use of the Winchester X38SPD all-lead hollowpoint +P .38 Special ammunition (FBI Load). "Hubbed cylinder" guns are not recommended for frequent use with full-charge .357 ammunition. This is because if shot frequently with full-charge .357s the barrel extension will crack through the thin section where it had less heat capacity. Older Model 19s having the gas ring on the yoke, rather than on the cylinder, do not have this problem, but after about 5000 rounds of full-charge magnum ammunition will require both a long cylinder and oversized lockwork parts to stay in specs. Once a gun reaches this point, if it again goes out of time or develops further end-shake, it already has all the oversized parts in it. Factory practice is not to attempt further repair of an OFG (open front gage the factory term noted on the repair-reject tag) and return the gun because no repair parts are available.
Department guns tagged OFG and returned are scrapped.
In extensive testing by US Customs and Border Patrol at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, GA, it was determined that the K-frame .357s would not pass a 5000 round endurance test of full-charge .357 without malfunctions or requiring replacement parts that required maintenance above the user level.
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The Winchester .38 Spl. +P+ 110-grain Q4070 Treasury load was developed to improve handgun duty performance, but its higher chamber pressure of up to 23,500 psi caused excessive wear & tear on the guns, especially the forcing cone cracking issue. Repeated failures of K-frame .357s in CBP service led to development of the L-frame.
It is a little terrifying that only 3.5K over .38 Spl +P would cause problems in a 35,000 psi gun.
Is it the light bullet more than the pressure?
I have an Outdoorsman, a 686, several GP-100s and Blackhawks, and a (new) Python, so I have plenty of guns for full power .357 loads. What I'm hoping for is to find a .357 Magnum load that is above any .38 Special load but below any full-power .357 Magnum load that I can shoot foreverish in my M19s and M66s.If you want a revolver which will handle a steady diet of full-charge in a volume of 5000+ rounds of .357s or +P+ LE .38 Special loads, without malfunctions or requiring parts replacement, buy an S&W Model 20, 27, 28, or modern L-frame, Ruger Six series 160- prefix or later (Mil-Q-9858A), GP100 or Colt Python.
Does such a thing exist?
Do you mean as to a "full-power .357 Magnum loads" one that equals todays factory internal ballistics, one that equals the internal ballistics of today's maximum loads as per SAAMI MAP or one that equals yesteryears original 357 magnum load?
Also, for what bullet?
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
By today's standards.
More specifically, if .38 Spl +P is 19 or 20K, and .357 is 35K, I'm thinking about something like a 158 gr lead bullet of any flavor at 25 to 28K psi. I would guess this would be an 1,100 to 1,200 fps load...?
Before I reached a "more experienced age", I have done the same thing. After a cast range session, I would put a cylinder full of 240 Gr Speer H P's down range. Heaven only knows what the pressure was on that first poor Model 29. I am a long way from as knowledgeable as an expert but this group of people here has taught me more that I ever thought possible. My byline says that none of us are as smart as all of us and here is where that point was driven home. My Mod 29-2 thanks all of you!
IT AINT what ya shoot--its how ya shoot it. NONE of us are as smart as ALL of us!
Regards todays standards, I 've measured the psi of numerous factory 357 rounds (Winchester, Remington, Federal, S&W) from 110 JHP to 158 Lubaloy. Haven't found any that approach 35,000 psi. All have ranged from 23 - 30,000 psi with most in the 25 - 28,000 psi range..... Probably why the velocities of factory rounds seem low (because they are) out of 4" revolvers.
In the 357 Magnum 9.5 gr Blue Dot under a 358156 will run 28,500 psi +/-. Under a 358477 6.5 gr Unique runs 28,500 +/- psi also and 7.5 Herco will run 27,000 +/- spi. A 358156 seated long in 38 SPL cases over 11.5 gr 2400 will get you 28,700 psi +/-. In 357 cases 12 gr 2400 under thsame bullet seated to the standard front groove will run close to the same.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
These are very helpful data.
Does anyone care to guess what the lifespan of a M19 with 158gr loads kept at these levels?
I never shoot the hot loads and the Model 19 I ha before the divorce was the best shooter I had. I was able to find a nickel plated one from 1979 that shoots as well. I got lucky. The Model 19 fits me better than any other revolver.
That Unique load is a very accurate load with that bullet. In my model 66 4 inch, it runs right at 1000 FPS and seems to split the difference between the 38 +P and the real 357's. Don't tell Elmer but it usually will out shoot a similar load with the 358-429.
_________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.
Haven't read the whole thread but enough to grasp the gist of it's direction. Firstly let me state that I carried a M/19....no dash.....from 1966 till we transitioned to auto's in the early 80's.....Personally I had no issue at all with mine other than shimming it to relieve the endplay that developed after much, much use. True, we carried the 158 HP jacketed stuff and formally practiced for qual's with wad cutters and later w/a bullet design that would accomodate speed loaders, but in all those years and all that shooting I saw but one cracked bbl and that was on a somewhat aged M/10.
I am very very sure that my gun has had no less than a hundred thousand rounds thru it inclusive of my own handloads using Keith's 170 hard cast. Those tho were loaded to give just about 1150 using 2400 and standard primers. Very accurate and that flat meplat did succeed in dropping one felon....not by me, but my partner who'd talked me out of a box of the stuff.
And yeah,if I was starting out today and had to pack a revolver it'd most like be an L frame in support of the comment that the L is what the k should have been. Still this is absolutely no criticism of that old 19 as it is till operable today but lives it's old age in my safe mostly.. Still shoots as accurately as I can and I do use it for the 218 revolver qual's.
Got that gun, K390xxx, from a pawn shop with a 15 for a trade. Immediately sent it to the factory for a refinish and a name engraving to stop myself from trading it.........and even with the poor house wages of that time considered it was money well spent. Oh yeah, had to go the pawn shop pickup as for some reason 19's were impossible to find locally then!
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