I can tell you from personal experience that Cooper's .45 ACP loads were frame crackers.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
The 7.5 gr Unique load could possibly be a "frame cracker", but the H&G 68 load with 4.2 grains of Bullseye is a winner.
6.5 grains Unique with the 215 grain bullet would be about right. Wonder if that was a typo.
Anything is possible. But, that isn't the only publication I've seen that load.
I shot that 7.5 grain load back in the day. It was a handful.
Last edited by RKJ; 03-19-2022 at 09:08 AM. Reason: put wrong number in
I believe, and had for many years, it is/was a typo printed in that column and in G&A's "Jeff Cooper on Handguns". I've many times read Cooper to say, and heard him say it once, the H&G #68 over 7.5 gr Unique was his suggested "social load" using a hard cast bullet. He also suggested any 200 gr hard cast bullet of 40 - 45 caliber at 1000 fps was about as good as it would get. I have never read what mould the "215" bullet actually was from. Perhaps someone knows?
For many years I've shot a lot of commercial hard cast (Greer and then Laser Cast) 200/205 gr cast SWC of facsimile to the H&G #68 over 7.5 gr of Unique in M1911/Combat Commanders with steel frames w/o any sign/hint of a cracked frame. I also use 18 lb recoil springs though. Velocities run 990 to 1050 fps.
Having pressure tested that load with Laser cast 200 gr SWCs and cast of Lee's 452-200-SWC I've found the pressures to run from 17,500 psi to 18,500 psi depending on the bullet weight and seating depth used. That is well under the SAAMI MAP of 21,000 psi for the 45 ACP.
My own 'social load" is the 200 gr Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dot over 7.5 gr Unique. Velocity runs 1025 +/- fps out of my 5" M1911. The pressure of that jacketed bullet load runs 18,700 psi. Again, well under the SAAMI MAP.
Note; Testing Hornady 220 gr Critical Duty and CorBon 230 gr +p loads gave psi's out of the same test barrel right under the top end or 45 ACP+P MAP of 23,000. I was told they were loaded to SAAMI +P pressure. Thus the pressures are basically correct [there will always be a test to test variation] for the 7.5 gr Unique loads.
While I have shot a lot of those (they really tumble jack rabbits....) it is not my normal practice load not the load I used for IPSC. That load is the 200 gr SWC or 230 TC over 5 gr of Bullseye.
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 03-18-2022 at 08:18 PM.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
While I will agree the 215 grain could be a typo it may have not been a typo.
Seems like a lot of things are typos and/or wrong data or other complications nowadays.
Hensley and Gibbs made a #78 215 grain SWC mold at one time. Could it POSSIBLY have been at ONE time he liked the 215 SWC/7.5 gr Unique at one time and then due to circumstances switched to the H&G #68 later or vice versa?
Oh well it doesn't really matter now since we have a miriad of bullets and powders now to cobble something up regardless of what Cooper used.
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 03-18-2022 at 09:18 PM.
I don't KNOW that this is the bullet that Col. Cooper had in mind, but the SAECO #58 215 gr. SWC is a WONDERFUL projectile for non-target .45 ACP. I think Col. Cooper's load was supposed to clock at 950 f/s from a 5" barrel.
Using Missouri Bullets' polymer-coated 215s, I obtained that velocity with 6.9/Unique. Obviously, all firearms are somewhat different, and 215 gr. @ 950 f/s is a handful. I recommend a heavier-than-stock recoil spring for this load.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
Carpe SCOTCH!
I’ve loaded the H&G #34 230grn RN boolit extensively. A local guy has moulds for several H&G-pattern boolits, and he can crank them out coated for a few pennies extra.
Prior to all the Corvid-panic, we did a cash deal for 5K coated 230grn boolits. These run 100% in all my 45s - 1911s as well as my old S&W 3rd Gen DA/SA pistols.
I load mine over 4.8 - 5.0grns of Bullseye, which essentially duplicates the classic Mil-hardball load. Very accurate too.
Cooper was such a hardcore .45acp honcho, it’s a mystery to me why he went with the 215grn load over 4.2grns of Bullseye. That’s an extremely mild load out of a full-size gommit model 1911.
Last edited by Nick Adams; 03-19-2022 at 05:54 PM.
"Cooper was such a hardcore .45acp honcho, it’s a mystery to me why he went with the 215grn load over 4.2grns of Bullseye. That’s an extremely mild load out of a full-size gommit model 1911."
That isn't what he said. Reread what he said for social work load.
I think if your frame would crack, it would be from the recoil, rather than the pressure.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
I believe I have read where he did indeed mention the H&G #78 mound as his boolit of choice. I took his 7.5 Unique load to be used for carry, and not for general practice, hence the 4.2 gr.load of BE.
Larry, I did mean, recoil of the slide, hitting the frame. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Last edited by GBertolet; 03-19-2022 at 10:28 PM.
I'd think the slide velocity could be moderated with a higher-rate hammer spring and an un(der)-rounded firing pin stop.
In the late 1980s, I tried a load of 7.2/Unique/200 gr. LSWC in a Mk IV Series '70 Government Model. It chronographed 1059 f/s and hit like a freight train, on jack rabbits and javelina. Mercifully, I never had to use the load on "two-legged" vermin, but I can guess the likely outcome.
More recently, I reprised this load with 7.1/BE-86/200 gr. LSWC-PC. I think the velocity was something like 1061 or 1073 f/s, with QUITE stellar accuracy, and darned fine penetration (BHN = 18). THIS time, I went with a higher-rate hammer spring, a flat firing pin stop, and a "shock-buff" on the recoil spring guide. It'll be my "under the deer blind" deer gun.
If I thought I could push the 215 gr. SAECO SWC over 1000 f/s without bending things, I'd sure try it.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
Carpe SCOTCH!
I read that recipe many times by Cooper and I think he used 7.2gr with a 230gr rnl.......
With the much larger Meplat of the Saeco 058 215 grain bullet over most other 200 - 215 grain bullets I sure don't think one would have to get over 1000 fps with it for it to be effective.
There will be others make comments about the Meplat, from those that have few firearms and shoots very, very, very little to those have more firearms than the United States Army and shoots more than the whole United States military combined and owns thousand upon thousands of dollars of equipment give their opinion on my comment.
I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont.
As far as speaking about or on subjects we know little about, who doesn't do it. It is all around us at work, at home, at Church, at the range, or on shooting forums or anywhere people gather or are.
So he would be no different on that aspect of being human than you, me, our parents or any other person.
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