M91/38 Moschetto T.S. Carcano carbine

[Buckshot]

I bought this little carbine back in the late 90's for $75, and then proceeded to forget about it for awile. It's chambered 6.5x52 and like new. The right photo shows it was made by Fabrica National d' Armas - Brescia.



Right photo shows the serial number. Other then a small stamping of what appears to be a shield of some type on the right side these are the only stampings on the metal portions of the carbine. It was made after Italy's capitulation as there is no Roman numerals stamped on the breech end of the barrel, to denote the year it was manufactured during the reign of Mussolini.



As the left photo shows, the stock is serial numbered to the carbine. Overall the little carbine is in very nice condition. There are a few bangs and minor compressions in/on the stock. The metal is all without blemish and 100%. The bore gleams. It appears that the carbine was assembled before the stock was stained. After buying the thing I naturally took it apart. The wood under the nose cap, barrel band, butt plate, and the inletting is all natural, unstained.



The boltface, and right photo shows the extractor. The boltface has an annular groove to help handle escaping gas in the event of a blown primer. It's primary escape route is down the ejector slot at teh 4 o'clock position. In the right photo just above and slightly aft of the left lug is a gas escape hole for a pierced primer.

[Buckshot]

Typical for rifles of this era of design (1891) the firing pin carries considerable weight in accessory parts. Other then a couple minor differences, all Carcano bolts were the same design from first to last. The checkered piece is the safety. In the left photo the bolt is cocked. In the right photo the bolt is at rest. The safety is positive but somewhat difficult to apply and then take off.

To apply the safety you press forward on the checkered piece and then rotate it 90* counter-clockwise. When it reaches that position it will move backwards under the pressure of the mainspring. To take it off safe, push it all the way forward until it stops, then turn it down to the right.



The left and right photos show the 2 locking lugs. Notice that neither of them are weakened by any cuts. They are both individually much larger then the corresponding lugs on a Mauser rifle. In addition the action ring is also thicker in cross section. While these rifles don't display the super fine finish of the pre-war Mausers, neither did they at the end ever get so poorly finished as many German weapons.



I really don't think the Carcano's deserved the bad rep they have been saddled with over the years. From a civilian's point of view they really do not lend themselves to sporterizing due to the split bridge and the bolt handle in the middle of the bolt. The packet or clip loading feature also doesn't lend itself to aftermarket sporterizing. However from a design standpoint for a military rifle designed in 1891, there are several of it's peers that share the same issues. However it must be remembered that this was the latest high tech of the time.

................Buckshot

[jonk]

I happen to agree 100%. There is nothing weak or unsafe about the Carcano action. I can't say it is my favorite but it compares favorably to other 1891 designs I think, especially in the 6.5 world. In that regard, in fact, it was pretty much ahead of the curve as the Swedish 6.5, 6.5 Portuguese, 6.5 Jap, and 6.5 Dutch, and 6.5 Greek all came along a bit later. I'd surely rate it superior to the action of a Lebel, Krag, or Gew 88 in terms of strength and simplicity, and on par with the contemporary Mausers such as the Argentine and Belgian.

Not to mention mine shoot pretty well too. At least the long rifles or carbines that weren't cut down.

[Andy_P]

I consider the Carcano action among the strongest you will find - certainly safe using published loads for the 6.5x52.

A couple of years ago I proof tested a M38. A case full of Unique over a Magnum primer, behind a 160gr Hornady - at the end of a long string. That's in the 100K CUP range. The action held, but the cartridge base was obliterated, and the extractor was blown to pieces.

This will mean nothing to those who cling to the belief that the action is dangerous. Their best consolation is that it handles gas no better than a Rem 700.

I have a couple of set trigger assemblies for the Carcano that I've tried on a couple of guns, and with the right bullet and load, they can be pretty accurate.

[Nelsdou44]

Of the Carcanos my favorite is the M38 short rifle. Its barrel is a bit longer than the carbine but still pretty handy and easy to carry.

I just bought a M38 action out of an 7.35 short rifle that's in excellent shape. My plan is to find a barrel blank in 35 cal 16 twist for this action and chamber it for 35 Rem. 35 Rem cartridges fit and "work" with the clips just fine for this action. The only draw back the clips only take 5 of the 35 Rem in lieu of 6 for the Carcano. I think the Carcano is good for pressures well higher than the levers, but my real interest would be for shooting cast. With the right wood it could be a poor man's mannlicher project.

Nels

[NickSS]

I have used Carcano's for many years I fact I own three right now. As for strength I would rate it as very strong as I proved to my own satisfaction a lot of years ago. I have a Model 38 rifle that I bought in NY City for $15 (the good old days) and shot it with surplus ammo till surplus ran out and I could not find it anymore. I took it to my local gun shop to trade it off and the dealer did not want it but after a bit of dickering he decided to buy it in blown up condition for a wall decoration. So we started to try to blow it up. We had three rounds of surplus ammo. We rigged the gun up in his test tube and with a 1/4 drill rod hammered a 180 gr cast lead 311 bullet about six inches in front of the chamber. We loaded a round of surplus went into the next room with a string and touched it off. Upon inspection there was not a bulge in the barrel nor and extra effort required to open the bolt. The primer was flat. Nex we pulled the bullet and dumped the GI powder and filled the case with 2400 and put the bullet back. We hammered another lead slug up the bore about six inches and fired the rifle. Again we found no damage but the bolt was hard to open and the primer fell out of the case head when ejected. We loaded our last round with 2400 and hammered two slugs up the bore. one about a foot and the second about six inches in front of the chamber. We touched that round off. Upon inspection we needed a mallet to open the bolt and the shell would not come out until we beat on it with a five pound sledge and a steel rod. Careful inspection of the rifle did not reveal any decernable bulges in the barrel nor any damage to any parts. We were all astounded. The dealer gave me $10 for the rifle and hung it on his wall with a sight that said "it's stronger than it looks. One other tidbit of Carcano info. The Italians still use the 6.5X52 round for target shooting and they win a lot of European shooting matches with it.

[Andy_P]

Compare the genius of the "new" perfect infantry round - the 6.8 SPC, to the 6.5x52.

[Hickory]

I had one of these back in the 70's, took to Canada for years to shoot bear (if I saw any while fishing) I got three bears. Bear license back then in Ont was $20.00. I quit taking it into Canada when I measured the barrel and found out that it was 17.5 inches long and the Canadian government requires no less than 18.5 inches! Big time boo boo. I'm glad I never got caught. I EVEN HAD GAME WARDENS CHECK IT TO MAKE SURE IT WASN'T LOADED.

[StarMetal]

Compare the genius of the "new" perfect infantry round - the 6.8 SPC, to the 6.5x52.

The 6.8 SPC isn't the new perfect military round, but if you want to compare something to the 6.5 Carcano that wants to be a military round look at the 6.5 Grendel.

Joe

[Niner]

I've got an M38 carbine rechambered to 7.9 Mauser during the war. Fired it with Turk ammo loading one round at a time.... living dangerously by all accounts. It shot true enough to aim and didn't kick all that bad either.

Although finding a clip that would hold 8mm ammo is a problem, I'd probably shoot it again....with reduced hand loads.

[Throwback]

I am privy to two instances of Carcanos blowing up. In one the cause was never identified. Surplus ammunition was used and the shooter suffered facial cuts and required stitches to his left hand. Machinegun ammunition was suspected but I have no idea about that.

The second instance was with a sporterized ie. low-value rifle. We took a Norma loaded cartridge and pulled the 160 grain bullet, replaced the stick powder with Blue Dot to the base of the neck and re-seated the bullet. We touched it off remotely and the gun came apart quite thoroughly. I will post a picture when I can get to it.

The design is probably quite safe within the known limits of standard pressure loads but I am not confident of its ability to handle extraordinary loads. It may simply be a case of variable metalurgy analagous to the low-number springfields. There for example, was a case of bad steel and not bad design.

There is often a grain of truth to what you read. Krags do not have a reputation for blowing up for example but they do show up with cracked lugs due to repeated use with heavier loads. Mauser rifles, despite their strong actions have softer steel than modern guns and will often suffer problems such as frozen bolts when fed stouter loads. The issue with Beretta 92FS slides is a more recent example.

Carcanos have a reputation for blowing up on occasion and I have to feel that it is not something that can be totally written off as an urban myth.

[Throwback]

Here as promised are the pics. Note that the weakness is evident not in the lugs or the barrel, but in the receiver, pieces of which flew to parts unknown. Note that the reciever is not especially thick. I last saw one of the big chunks headed towards New Hampshire. The sign is a little tongue in cheek.

[Niner]

We took a Norma loaded cartridge and pulled the 160 grain bullet, replaced the stick powder with Blue Dot to the base of the neck and re-seated the bullet. We touched it off remotely and the gun came apart quite thoroughly.

What does that prove other than that you were able to intentionally destroy an otherwise perfectly good gun action? Kinda like stupid pet tricks I guess.

[Phil]

Well said Niner. As for the receiver not being particularly thick, take the barrel off a M1917 Enfield action sometime and see how thick that receiver is. Not very.

Cheers,

Phil

[Throwback]

Stupid pet tricks - maybe so.

The point was not to see if I could blow up a $50 rifle. I knew it would blow up. The point was how it blew up. Incidentally, the problem with the 1917 was with its original firing pins, which would blow back into the shooter's eye when a load was excessive.

I have never fired a factory load that was overloaded but I have found a dud on occasion. One had no powder and another had no flash hole. I never the less know they happen from time to time. I shall assume the Carcanos are good rifles for judicious cast-bullet loading but I could never shoot one without having some doubts based upon history and reputation and I would recommend not using fillers.

I can also tell you that the gentleman whose rifle blew up on him has very choice things to say about Carcanos. I can't say I blame him.

[Phil]

That "problem" with the M1917 action was (and still is) shared with a lot of actions, including the Springfield, Krag, Mauser, pre 1968 Win M70's (when they put the cap on the end of the bolt sleeve, then removed it because of the stupidity of a lot of people), M-N's, L-E's, and the list goes on and on. Probably the most gas safe action is the Japanese T38 and T99. Most of what you are talking about there is gas coming through the bolt due to a blanked primer. Lots of times on low pressure loads that don't obturate the case neck, gas will follow the lug raceways and get in your face that way. Wanna avoid it? Quit shooting.

The Carcano actions were used by the Italian government from 1891 until sometime in the nineteen seventies with probably as few problems as any other military action fielded by any nation. Why the one owned by your buddy blew up I have no idea. Without seeing it its a crap shoot on what happened, if anything. The Germans barreled a lot of them to 7.9X57IS and some people are still shooting them. I've not heard of any of them coming apart.

I've had more dud primers in factory ammunition than all the ammunition I've loaded since I started in 1956 or 57. I have seen cases with no flash holes in US Gov't ammunition.

You can blow ANY action up if you want to. Lots of threads here on that. Weatherby's, Winchester M70's, and more. Its no great trick, just load enough really fast powder under a really heavy bullet and stand back. If your critera for shooting an action is whether or not you can blow it up, I can guarantee you won't find one.

Phil

[Throwback]

Certainly a full case of Blue Dot or similar powder can be expected to blow up almost any action. I did not mean to imply this was in any way unique to the Carcano.

[skeet1]

About 45 years ago I owned a beautiful little Carcano carbine like the one Buckshot has photos of. I was shooting old military ammo in it when a primer let go and blew half of the case head off. That was the last time I shot that carbine. Molten brass struck me in the right eyebrow but fortunately missed all the important parts. Be very cautious shooting old ammo in guns that aren't known for their safety.

Skeet1

[Throwback]

"That "problem" with the M1917 action was (and still is) shared with a lot of actions, including the Springfield, Krag, Mauser, pre 1968 Win M70's (when they put the cap on the end of the bolt sleeve, then removed it because of the stupidity of a lot of people), M-N's, L-E's, and the list goes on and on. Probably the most gas safe action is the Japanese T38 and T99. Most of what you are talking about there is gas coming through the bolt due to a blanked primer. Lots of times on low pressure loads that don't obturate the case neck, gas will follow the lug raceways and get in your face that way. Wanna avoid it? Quit shooting."

The problem with the 1917 (an excellent action) was unique to that design and had to do with the firing pin spring and not with its gas management. The firing pin would actually back out violently and needed to be hammered back into the bolt with a mallet. This issue was discovered at Ogden Arsenal, then under the leadership of Elmer Keith. It was fixed thanks to him.

Most guns have had their issues during development no matter how successful the design, witness the AR15/M16 & the earlier M14. The US does a better job of publishing these things than many other countries. I am not sure just what kind of exposure any problems the Italians may have had would have received. There too, most of their loads were probably quite appropriate to the action.

Finally I can assure you that Carcano pressures are set where they are for very good reasons P.O. Ackley's comments notwithstanding. Some comments aside, the Carcano does not compare in any way to the strength of the Remington 700. For one thing, if you observe the design of the bolt face, you can see where escaping gas is focused.

Where customization is concerned, many gunsmiths will not touch them and Gunsmithing schools council their students likewise. All I am saying is be careful and do not get carried away by any hyperbole about how strong the action is.

[mosin9130]

"...the Carcano does not compare in any way to the strength of the Remington 700".
True. Read this article: http://www.lasc.us/RangingShot19-2.htm, look at the photo of Carcano and notice that it's safer to shoot a Carcano filled with Blue Dot (a pistol powder) than a M70 half filled with fast RIFLE powder.
Trowback, do you want to try with your M70 and BlueDot?