here are a couple more old loadings from 1953 Ideal handbook
here are a couple more old loadings from 1953 Ideal handbook
Last edited by atr; 09-08-2009 at 08:08 PM.
Thanks atr,
I have tried the 15 gr. load just a couple of shots and intend to try some more now that I feel more confident with all this new (old) information. I think I will stop at 15.5 grs. though in my '73.
You guys have me itching for a '92 Winchester now.
Thanks again fellas,
Don
Historically speaking, the .44 W.C.F. /.44-40 was birthed as a rifle cartridge and thus it was factory loaded with slower burning smokeless powders in 13 to 17 gr. charges (depending on the type of powder) from way back in 1895 until the late 1970's. After that the trend for the factories was to load it as a pistol cartridge with faster burning smokeless powders.
I'm with Kirk. I load it as a rifle cartridge with slower burning smokeless just as it inventor did beginning in 1895. Nothing wrong with using faster burning smokeless, but if one's goal in a '73 Winchester is to replicate the velocity of the original .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridge (1,250-1,300 f.p.s.) one can't do it at safe pressures with faster burning powders.
One safety advantage with the slower burning powders is that an accidental double charge can overflow the case. Not so with most of the faster powders.
atr,
Thank you for the pics. A research of my old Ideal, Lyman catalogs indicates that they showed those specs until the 1960's but then discontinued that data.
The velocity shown with 4759 is unusually high as compared to what I have found. Perhaps it was much faster burning back then. Also, the loads shown for 2400 and 4227 are definitely much too high.
The .44-40 data I have taken with some vintage 1970's made 4759 and some of recent manufacture is almost identical. 17.0 grs. under a 200 gr. cast bullet from a Magma mold (not the 427098 which seats deeper in the case and thus would increase pressures) clocks 1,280 f.p.s. However, faster lots could be encountered, therefore the importance of a chronograph.
Regarding the difference between 4227 and 4759, I have not seen the variation that Kirk has. Again different lots can = different results. I have been using H4227and have found that the same 17 gr. charge of H4227 is within 10 f.p.s. of the same charge of 4759. I do position the powder to the back of the case prior to firing though for the best consistancy.
In Lyman's 47th reloading manual, the lots of IMR4227 and IMR4759 they used were very close regarding velocity and pressure:
.45-70 / 420 gr. cast bullet
34.0/4227/1684/37,700
35.0/4759/1682/36,400
Have fun,
w30wcf
aka w44wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian
I guess I could sneak up on the 17 grs. load. of SR 4759 and load 10 of each in .5 gr. increments and keep an eye on the primers and the groups. What do y'all think about that idea?
Don S.
Don S.,
Unfortunately, you will not be able to tell by looking at the primers if you are exceeding safe pressures in a '73. Unless someone has a trace pressure system, the 2nd best way is a chronograph.
If you would want to send me 5 cartridges, I'll be happy to run them across my chronograph.
w30wcf
aka w44wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian
here's my Navy Arms 1866 Yellowboy purchased in 1982 .44/40 cal.
Maybe this is a stupid question, and if so, please pardon my ignorance. Why not use Pyrodex, Triple 7, or another BP substitute? These are somewhat cleaner than BP,and can be made to shoot very well. I can shoot Pyrodex in my 45 Colt Vaquero for extended periods, and all I have to do is wipe down the exterior every once in a while. If nothing else, maybe a guy could just reserve these loads to use every now and then. I gotta admit, I LOVE that big cloud of smoke! If nothing else, it gives you another reason to head to the range and try something different, and also gives you something to compare your smokeless loads to.
lathesmith
PS I really liked the post comparing powder pressure curves and spikes, there's some really good points made there.
A while back on one of these type threads, I pointed out the obvious folly of mixing revolver loads with carbine loads. At the time I was worried about exactly the same pitfalls being discussed here. I believe it had to do with CAS type loads. Before long some "expert" with a tad too much ego and testosterone joined in and started quoting loads and velocities in the 38-40s and 44-40s somewhere around 1600-1800 fps with normal bullet weights. Just lovely! I read the history about the factories trying that back in the day for the Win 92- the boxes so loaded were so labeled. Then similar to today, some users' reading ability were not much beyond sand box and some guns were kaboomed. I was strongly put down by a couple of the posters involved... so I bowed out of any more input into that thread. I envisioned a novice grabbing one of those loads/velocities from the thread, putting it in an old Colt SAA or even a little stronger old Win 73 and KABLOOOEY! Oh Well.
Excellent thread- kudos!
Looking in Lyman's book they list 110 powders in relation to burn rate. Listed in order from fastest to slowest.
#23 Alliant Unique
#41 Alliant 2400
#48 IMR SR-4759
#50 IMR-4227
#51 Hodgdon H-4227
#77 Vihta Vuori N540
#110 Accurate 8700
Nice read guys, thanks!!
I'd like to hear more!
Dated Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets lists (specifically) 13.7 grains as giving 1200-1300 fps and intended for use in 1873 Winchester rifles. Clearly warns not to exceed this loading. The bullet used in this loading is the old Lyman design #42798. As an owner of an 1873 Winchester (that is in good condition--- and I intend to keep it that way) I second the advice regarding the internal links not being particularly strong. IMR 4227 is very close in burning rate to 4759 and the same charge would be appropriate and give the same range of MV. LLS
Well...............since lathesmith brought it up........why not shoot something else? Worried about pressure & case life?
If I want more speed than 8 gr of Unique.........I am now using BP.
Saeco #420/36 gr Swiss 3F/.030 veg wad/Fed 150 .........shoots very accurate@200m and burns clean. This is in Uberti 73 44-40 24".
Gotta love that cloud of smoke!
Have Fun Shooting,
Jon
Col 2:13-17
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |