I guess this is a regional idea about having to have a big gun to kill deer. Where I’m at we literally have state issued tags that allow us to kill anywhere from tens to hundreds of deer off each of ranch. We use 223 and head/neck shoot everything. Works great for culling and there is no meat damage. Anyways, I didn’t start this post to stir the ethics pot. Down here, a 223 is perfectly accepted for shooting deer. Where you are at, maybe not. To each their own.
i am a red dot fan for 223... but like most said, fast powder works!!!
Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!
I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.
223 might be an acceptable cartridge but you're basically shooting .22 LRs. Big difference. Why don't you just use a .22 LR? Oh yeah because it's illegal....
Why are you using a 55 grain for subsonic loads? Why not the heavier cast bullets designed for subsonic loads in the .223/5.56? Seems like they're in the 90 to 100 grain range? Those are used in the suppressed subsonic rounds to provide sufficient pressure to operate the semi-auto function of the AR based rifle.
Not illegal at all. You can kill exotics with a sling shot if you want to give it a go. If don’t wish to comment on the topic of subsonic loads, please move along. If you want to suggest that something is illegal, at least be familiar with the state game laws that you are commenting on.
"I guess this is a regional idea about having to have a big gun to kill deer. Where I’m at we literally have state issued tags that allow us to kill anywhere from tens to hundreds of deer off each of ranch. We use 223 and head/neck shoot everything. Works great for culling and there is no meat damage. Anyways, I didn’t start this post to stir the ethics pot. Down here, a 223 is perfectly accepted for shooting deer. Where you are at, maybe not. To each their own."
This^^^^^^^
AKA "Old Vic"
"I am a great believer in powder-burning".
--Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman
Sorry, no 55gr loads. They didn't interest me. Note that all charges are weighed. And all bullets were jacketed.
When I was playing with subsonic .223 I realized that the only way to get more energy on the target was to use a heavier bullet. This is my load data from back then. It works in my 1:7 twist AR, I have no idea if it'll work in yours or even be safe in yours. Penetration is some kind of fantastic. Out to 75 yds the load is a tackdriver, then it starts to destabilize.
Sub-Sonic - accurate to 75 yds. only
Bullet: Sierra 80 gr HPBT (loaded frontwards)
(Alternate: Hornady 75 HPBT works also and can be loaded to fit a magazine)
Brass: US military
Primer: CCI 450 Magnum
Powder: 4.4 gr Green Dot
Case length: 1.750
2.430 LOA - Single loading only - Won’t fit in magazine
HEAVY crimp - Lee crimp die
Than I decided to work up a silent load for a 16" Contender. I also bought a few k of 33 gr jacketed and tipped seconds and decided use them. Basically it's a silent .22 that won't gunk up the can since the can is sealed. It works great for killing vermin absolutely silently. Used with NV they can't even tell where the shot is coming from. This load data was worked up in my barrel and obviously I don't know how it will work in yours. Yes, you start high and work down unless you like lodged bullets in your barrel. You really need a 'chrono' to work with subsonic loads.
Bullet: 33 Gr V-Max (.22 Mag surplus and blems)
Green Dot Powder
CCI 450 small rifle magnum primer
2.110 COAL
Moderate Lee Factory Crimp (try crimping with the seating die)
3.4 gr 1428 fps
3.2 gr 1415 fps
3.0 gr 1169 fps
2.5 gr 1169 fps
2.0 gr 1013 fps
FWIW, these same bullets can be driven to almost 4000fps using fast powder. I wish I had a better memory of doing that, but I had no use for them and it was just to see what the bullet would take. They'd probably blow up on the surface of the target. Might be OK for ground squirrels if the closest ones weren't thousands of miles away. Inexpensive .17 except in a .22 bore?
Last edited by BJK; 03-12-2021 at 11:08 AM.
thats how i kill most of my deer. Crop damage shooting on a farm and we kill up to a 100 deer a year. Went through that head shooting thing seen some deer really messed up run off. Did the neck thing. Lots of places in a neck that dont drop a deer. Found the best way is whats worked for man for centurys. Shoot them behind the shoulder with a amply powerful rifle. If your shoot 100s of deer why even worry about loosing a bit of rib meat or an occasional front shoulder. Shoot 100s of deer and your eventually going to pull a shot. Nobodys perfect and if your shooting behind the shoulder theres MUCH more room to error and still make a clean kill. Make an error in a head shot and youve blown a jaw off. Dont get me wrong. Ive taken head shots and neck shots and still occasionaly do but im talking deer a 100 yards or less away. Im sure not risking a 300 yard shot shooting at the head of a deer. We get deer all the time in high oats that all you can see is necks and heads out 300 yards in a field. Sorry but i just watch them and look for a good behind the should shot. Bottom line is just what i said before. If your shooting a 223 or even a 22250 and are shooting a 100 deer a year and ARE HONSEST youve lost deer and deer have run off with terrible wounds and pain to die slowly. THing is when someone shoots that many deer they tend to forget those shots. We even had one guy hunting on the farm that we found out was shooting deer and if a deer ran out of the field at the shot he didnt even go and look for it. He was also taking the fawns he shot by accident and dragging them to the edge of the field and leaving them because it was to much work for the meat he got. He didnt last long.
My partener and i kill ALOT of deer. We take pride in the fact we do it right. We take only good shots and use enough gun. Our number one priority is clean kills. Meat comes second. If your priortys arent the same then stay away from where we do it. I have to ask one last question. WHY?? Why not shoot them in the head or neck with an 06. At least that way when you have a deer out at 300 yards you have an adequate gun. Ive heard the 22s are popular in texas. Blows my mind because the texans ive known are braggers that would claim there better hunters because they use a pop gun. there not prisses that cant shoot anything bigger then a 223! I just dont see one thing the 223 does better or even a single legit point to justify it. My guess is the majority of those doing it are the young wet behind the ears type that comes on a internet forum to brag. Same ones that blaze away with 6.5 creedmores at deer 800 yards away. My dad told me when i started hunting to shoot thinking that any deer i wound and suffers will be waiting for me at the gates of heaven to stomp me into the ground. that i needed to respect the fact i was taking a life and it was my obligation to do it so the animal didnt suffer needlessly. Heck the first 6 deer i killed i did it with a little m1 carbine but not one of those deer was shot past 50 yards. Like you said to each his own. Say what you want but EVERYONE knows a 223 isnt a deer rifle. You could proabably kill a deer with a sling shot if all the stars aligned but that doesnt make it right. Now ill bow out of this one now. I dont need to say more. FACT is on my side. Ive killed over 500 deer in my life and know what works and what doesnt. How many did you kill to get your opinion?
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 03-07-2021 at 06:32 AM.
"Say what you want but EVERYONE knows a 223 isnt a deer rifle. " I agree; of course an awful lot of deer have been killed, eventually, with a 40-50 grain 22LR, and with a subsonic 223 round that is essentially what you are using. Even with a full load it is still a little bitty boolit.
Britons shall never be slaves.
yup joe. Ive killed and seen them killed with 22lrs 22mags 22 hornets and 223s. Doesnt make them proper tools. About like hammering in a nail with a rock. Sure you can do it in a pinch but what sense does it make when theres a hammer in the tool box. Add to that hammering a nail doesnt involve taking the life of something that can suffer.
Saying everyone from Texas is a braggart, would be like saying everyone from Michigan is a self righteous air bag. It’s just not so. I’m guessing you already know that though because you appear to know just about everything. My topic was on subsonic load data. Several have managed to stay on topic and contribute, you have not. Everyone is welcome to their opinions on matters but if it doesn’t contribute to the topic, it really doesn’t belong in the thread. You might consider starting a caliber specific deer hunting thread. Then you could expand on you vast knowledge of deer hunting.
Hills of texas
Carry on with your plan, many of us are interested in what the results will be. So please post your results/experiences.....the successes and failure/problems if any. Some of us are interested in terminal effectiveness results as we also shoot subsonic cast bullet in the 223 and other cartridges [I shoot some subsonic jacketed also].
Ignore the ones who neither understand the legality of shooting exotics in Texas nor the hunting/shooting conditions there.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
Will do. Hunting in the Texas hill country is completely different than hunting anywhere else. We have an extremely high number of native and exotic game. Above carrying capacity in many areas that leads to small bodied deer. We aren’t shooting too many 200 lbs plus whitetail. Most wont break 140. We hunt exotics and hogs at night with lights and or night vision too. If someone doesn’t agree with how things are down here that’s fine, but don’t harp on it. I’m interested in other caliber subs too. Right now though, I’m wanting to work with the 223. I will post up my results once I settle on a few loads to try.
read the post. Its pretty obvious what i meant to say is there ARENT braggers. What belongs in this thread isnt up to you. As long as rules arent broke i can post my opinion. If that bothers you then so be it. Also just so you know. Deer up here arent routinely 200lbs either. Matter of fact they rarely go over a 150. Most of the deer we shoot doing crop damage shooting are closer to a 100lbs. What i do know isnt math or come from a ballistics lab. Its WHAT kills deer. I got that knowledge not from daddy, not from guns and ammo and not from here. I got it from killing deer. LOTS OF DEER. An animal like any animal (yup even problem pigs) that i dont want running off suffering. If that doesnt bother you then you shouldnt be shooting them with a 458 mag. Maybe take up golf. Where does your opinion come from. As to Texas i served with some FINE people in the service that were from that state. Some great guys that were as patriotic as I am. Matter of fact i spent 4 months in the hospital with one of them.
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 03-09-2021 at 05:06 AM.
What Lloyd is not telling you is that there are people in Michigan that shoot deer with 5 cell flash lights and a 22lr. They shoot at night. They are NOT respected members of polite society. Back to sonic. I have a box of subsonic 22lr. 40 gr made in Germany. While subsonic .223 is interesting I do not believe that my 223 AR, my 22/250 or any of my 22lr rifles are suitable deer rifles. Use what ever you want but know that most hunters in other states will not approve of your choice of firearms.
Hills of texas, Yes, you can kill vermin deer with a .22. I've done it with a .22LR which is basically what you'll be using. But there are some prerequisites to it, as you know and mentioned. You must be able to place the shot precisely and be close enough to do that. I'd need to check my state regulations again, but I think we can use a .22 magnum or larger (Maine). I looked it up since the law may have changed.
"Cartridges:
• Firearms with .17 or .22 caliber rimfire
cartridges may not be used for deer,
moose, or bear hunting, except that .22
magnum can be used for deer hunting."
Hunters from other states know what they encounter and know their abilities in their deer hunting AO and the laws of their state and project that onto you. I think that's why you're getting the flak. They can't envision a place so overrun with deer that they destroy habitat for themselves and other animals and die of starvation. It's not generally done up here but there are islands that are so overrun with deer that the state hires pro hunters to kill them, while the residents who created the situation are blissfully asleep. It's accomplished with the use of suppressors, NV, and night hunting. In Maine that's not considered sporting, and must be done under a special permit but like your situation it's just about lowering the population and it's not about sport hunting. Heck, it's not hunting at all, just shooting, but it must be done. Those culls don't use .22s due to the ranges involved but I have no doubt that if the shots were close enough they'd use .22s to make sure the island residents stay in dream land.
Are you wrong? No I don't think so. Is the person who uses a .30-06 or a .375 wrong for using too much gun? No. Dead is dead and one must know the circumstances and ones abilities. Every state is different and I don't think many folks can make the mental switch from sport hunting to just lowering the population of animals that have bred so much that they're now considered a nuisance. You need quiet to kill as many as possible before they spook and that precludes the use of a .30-06. Good luck with your deer eradication efforts.
Just a question, what do you do with the meat? Sorry if that's already been asked.
Up here (that would be north) fresh road kill is generally donated to soup kitchens and such. I have no idea what the island cull deer are used for. But I called DIF&W to find out. I'm waiting for their return call. OK I waited long enough so I called the main office and got hold of a flak who essentially dismissed me. She stated, "It was probably donated to a food bank." . Heck I could have made that guess too, but I wanted something more definitive. She directed me to the Maine state archives which were of no help but at least she got rid of me from her phone.
Last edited by BJK; 03-12-2021 at 12:33 PM.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |