311413 in 1903A3 question

[rayg]

The bullets drop out of my 311413 mold at 314-15 with the short riding nose,(not much there), at 303-4.
I tried some bullets sized to .312 but didn't get good groups at 50 yrds with 20 grs I-4227and 18 grs 2400.
My A3, which is actually an A4, mikes out to .308/300.
Do you think there would be a problem shooting them unsized. The 311413 has only two lands so I would imagine they would upset to .308 easly. Any thoughts.
Also any powder charge suggestions. I have Unique and 4198 powder too, Ray

[chuebner]

I shoot the same one in my 03A3 sized to .311 but I push them slow, no more than 1150-1200fps. My load is usually 8gr Red Dot. At 100yd I have the rear sight set at 750 but this load will stay within the 9 ring on the SR1 target.

charlie

[Ben]

rayg :

Size your 311413 bullets to .309, charge your 06' cases with 11.5 grs. of Unique and I'll be very surprised if you don't get nail driving accuracy. That has been a favorite load of mine for a long time !

Ben

[Throwback]

This bullet shows up in a few posts and the conversation in each is pretty much the same.

311413 is an old Ideal design and as the Lyman Manual and CH Harris point out it has discouraged many aspiring bullet casters if they try to drive it too fast. I use it only occasionally as I can get the same results from 311041 and 311291. But it does do very well in very light loads.

It works best if it is slightly engraved by the rifling if you want it to work at medium velocities.

I have tried a few powders. I had inconsistent results with 700X. I also tried Blue Dot, Bullseye, and Green Dot at one time or another in small charges. These were fine but 2400 worked best. I did not use fillers. Best results were with 14 to 16 grains of 2400.

The only load I still use with this bullet is a light target and pest load in a modified case with 14 grains of 2400. I open up the flash hole with a #39 drill to improve ignition and avoid future headspace issues due to shoulder setback (a problem with squib loads). I use a dremel to mark the base of the cases with a groove so that they do not get mixed in with my regular brass. These shoot very well.

The nose of the 311413 is unsupported by the lands and the bullet will bend under rotational stresses causing increasing degrees of yaw as charges increase. At slow speeds below 1,400 and as low as 900 this bullet can be a real tack driver.

[shotman]

I like the 2400 too I loaded about 20 with 5477 they done good too I dont have load here but it was useing Lyman listed load for the 170gr. They done good in a Garand also

[rayg]

Thanks for the load suggestions gentlemen. Can anyone give me an opinion on my question if there would be a problem if I shoot this bullet unsized at the 314-5 dia instead of sizing it down to .311-12? As there is not much meat on the 311413 bullet maybe a little oversize might fill the groves better or would it make no difference or even reduce accuracy? Ray

[Ben]

rayg :

By the time you reach 314 - 315 in a standard 06' chambering, I'd think you'd run into an outside diameter of the loaded round that wouldn't chamber or if it did chamber you wouldn't have an adequate amount of space around the neck walls of the case to release the bullet properly ( causing a potential safety problem with a " pressure spike " )

If your bore is a true 308 bore , as you stated earlier in your first thread on this post , I can't see why you'd knowingly want to shoot a bullet that is .007 oversize ? ?
Other than saving the step of sizing , what is hoped to be gained with a bullet this large in a known .308 bore ?

Many of us shoot cast bullets that are larger than the bore by .001 , 002, or even .003 , not many of us will be shooting .006 - .007 over ? ?

Ben

[rayg]

Kind of a stupid idea wasn't it, Ray

[Ben]

Well, I won't say it was stupid, I guess if we ( all of us ) didn't do some experimenting and trying different things in this cast boolit world, we wouldn't be where we are with all of today's ideas on making cast boolits shoot well.

Ben

[Hardcast416taylor]

Hey Rayg. There is no such thing as a stupid question! You just wish to understand the answer better.Robert

[stillhunter]

311413 is a generally unrelyable performer. Go with 311291, or better yet 311467, and you will be a lot happier a lot faster. Good luck

[Char-Gar]

Lyman 311413 is Lyman's rendition of the "Squibb" bullet, designed by a guy name Joe Squibb from Lima Ohio back in the late 30's or early 40's. Every mold maker of the time, produced a version except Modern Bond. So, you can see it was quite popular. Phil Sharpe is his book on handloading gives alot of old data for the "Squibb" bullet.

The bullet was a very good performer at long at the velocity was kept below 1,400 fps, with 1,200 being even better. Light a fire under the bullet and accuracy went south very quick.

I have molds for this bullet by Lyman, Belding and Mull, Hensley and Gibbs, and Cramer. Someday when I get my round tuit, I am going to do some extensive work with the bullet and try and find out what is what.

A guy who went by the name of Aladin, who was a regular poster here for a while, designed a 200 grain version of the bullet. Some folks swore by it, and others swore at it. Sorta like Aladin himself.

[garandsrus]

RayG,

Try 16.0 gr 2400. My 03A3 shoots about 1/2" groups at 50 yds with this load and the 311413, ACWW and a gas check.

John

[johnly]

I'm going to try this bullet in my K31. It has a short throat, and seating to the rifling only lets about .100" of the full sized diameter bullet out of the case neck.

John

[Ben]

Chargar:

You're right, the people who got one of the Aladin 210 gr. .30 cal. , HBC molds ( I have 2 of them ) seem to be split " Pro & Con " as to the bullet's usefulness.

I'm certainly " Pro " on the HBC mold. I've never pushed it past about 1750 fps, and in the zones of 1,500 - 1,750 fps. it is certainly a very accurate bullet for me.

Here is a target that I shot 5 rds. @ 50 yards with my Ruger # 1 Stainless, 308 Win. with the 210 gr. HBC bullet, sized .3097, with 18.5 grs. IMR 4198 with WLR primers :

[madsenshooter]

I'm going to try this bullet in my K31. It has a short throat, and seating to the rifling only lets about .100" of the full sized diameter bullet out of the case neck.

John

John,

I've used Belding and Mull's version of this bullet in my K31, to really get into the throat I had to bump the front band down a bit. Otherwise, the front driving band against the beginning of the K31's rifling is what is stopping the bullet. Once that band is bumped to .305, you gain about 1/8 of OAL and the bullet then hits the rifling about 1/10" forward of the little band. The base of the boolit is then above the neck/shoulder junction. Here's a pic that'll let you see how much further I can seat the boolit out.

[Char-Gar]

Madenshooter - Is that B & M bullet gas checked? I have a plain base B & M mold for that bullet. The collectors well me that such a mold was never listed, and mine was either a special order or has been modifield to remove the gas check shank.

I have examined the mold under high magnification and I can see no difference in the tool marks on the base where the gas check shank should be and the rest of the mold. There should be some difference if the base was opened up at a latter date with a different tool. I don't think it was modified.

[rayg]

Well gentlemen went to the range yesterday and tried different light loads using Unique and 2400 with the 311413. And the 16 grs of 2400 did the best for me at the 50yr target.
I wish I would not have fired this load as first shot of the day as I don't know if that high shot was from a cold barrel or not. Even with the flyer it was still 1-1/8" which is better then I ever got before. The other five shots were under an inch. Will have to load up some more of the same load to see if it will do this consistently or not. I guess 16grs of 2400 works well in any rile from what they say.

I also tried 15 grs of 2400, and also 11 grs Unique but they did not do very well. I tried 6rds with a 10 gr Unique load and got two 3 shot clover leaf groups an 1-1/4" apart. I can't figure out why they are apart. However It was very windy and the 2X4 legs of the target frame was loose in their ground sockets, (pipes), and the wind kept moving the target frame forward and back about 3" each time the wind caught it. I'm not sure if that would change the impact if I still held POA on the target.
Ray

[rayg]

I'd like to try a different mould and I'm looking at the Lee ones both in 309 and 312. I'm thinking about the 312 size. It can serve different rifles as I can use that in my British and Japanese rifles as well as my Ross. I can always size it down to .309 for the 30-06. Also I know sometimes molds run on the small side in dia and I would hate to get one that is less then the 309. The Lee C-12 185 looks pretty good. Whats ya think, any suggestions or opinions on which mould would work best?
I do have a 314299 already. I've tried some loads for it in the A4 but haven't hit on a good one so far either. I've been sizing them at .311. as that's the lowest sizing die I have currently. Ray

[Bob S]

The Lee C312-185-1R is a good one for the 03A3. 100 yards prone:



After dialing it in:



Resp'y,
Bob S.