Is this a gun problem or reloading problem?

[mvintx]

I've been experimenting with 165 grain TC boolits in my 10mm Delta Elite and found an accurate load with 6.2 grains Unique. It is a fairly light load and cycles well with an 18 pound spring. The problem is half of the loads will hang up during feeding with the nose in the top of the chamber and the case jammed against bottom of the chamber opening. When fired, the cases eject smartly and the side locks back after the last round. If I replace the 18 pound spring with a 20, they will feed fine. The heavier spring apparently has enough force to overcome any hangups during the feeding process. Yes, the chamber is clean. The gun has digested thousands (and I'm not exaggerating) of the Lyman 401638 (175 TC). The 165 TC has a sharper corner where the flat nose meets the truncated sides than the Lyman which is nicely rounded off. The OAL is 1.255" (max is 1.260"), boolits are sized .402" and pass the plunk test. Just enough crimp is applied so the case mouth is touching the sides of the boolit. I'm not against using the 20 pound spring but I don't want to be hiding another problem that can be corrected. Does my chamber need to be opened up? Does the bottom of the chamber mouth need to be removed some? What am I missing here?

[Bazoo]

That's called a three point jam and is a common 1911 problem with ammo the gun don't like. My opinion is the spring is hiding the problem and it will intermittently do it with the #20 spring. It can be a simple thing that causes it. Overall length change will sometimes cure it. Sometimes lightly chamfering the firing pin hole will cure it, as the cases can snag there pending on overall length and feed angle. Sometimes a different mag style causes just enough difference in angle to cure it. If the bottom edge of your chamber is sharp, a very light radius there will help a lot.

It can be any of those things, or a combo. I'd guess light chamfer of the firing pin hole and a very slight chamber edge radius would cure it.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I have that issue with short nose bullets in a S&W 40 M&P bought a custom mold round nose with longer nose and it still does it where the wide flat nose with longer nose does not , going to try a few different lengths again this month and see if I can use the round nose or not , good luck .

[knifemaker]

Try seating the bullet out further and see if that will cure the problem. If that does not work, check the extractor to see if it is too tight on the case rim and not allowing the rear of the case go up far enough making the bullet nose enter the chamber at too high of a angle.

[ioon44]

If the magazine springs get weak or the lips spread out it will cause feeding problems also.

[Larry Gibson]

Not a gun or magazine problem. Simply a bullet problem......too short of a bullet problem or a bullet nose profile problem.

In semi-auto handguns the rim of the cartridge is levered up under the extractor onto the bolt face by the bullet nose riding the top of the chamber forward and the case pivoting on the top of the feed ramp/bottom edge of the chamber. The point of bullet ogive that hits the top of the chamber has to be far enough forward to have the leverage to pivot the rear of the case up. The heavier spring over comes this because it forces the the case into the chamber with the quicker cyclic time while the bullet nose still has enough leverage to pivot the case up.

This is why the H&G 68 feeds in just about any M1911 because the nose ogive at the edge of the meplat matches the point on a 230 hardball bullet that hits the top of the chamber. Thus the #58 chambers smoothly and easily. The problem of short stubby light weight bullets or with different nose profiles not feeding, giving the "three point jam", is exacerbated with pistols having steep feed ramps and/or feed ramps integral with the barrel which are usually steep.

If the ogive of the 165 where it hits the barrel should be at the same location as the same point on a loaded 175 bullet that feeds reliably. If it does not then that bullet is just a "no go" at that OOAL. If you can seat it so that point matches on both cartridges while still "plunking" and fitting in the magazine that may solve the problem.

[mvintx]

All great replies...thanks very much. I was not aware that the firing pin hole could be a factor in a jam. The nose profile and sharp chamber edge, I understand. I'll have to load some more rounds at longer lengths and with the slide removed from the frame, see if I can determine where the problem lies. I can't go much shorter because the case mouth will be past the ogive. Longer and the rounds will stick in the magazine. But perhaps there is a 'magic' length that will work...experimentation will tell. As far as chamfering the bottom of the chamber mouth, I'm a little bit nervous about doing that. I've got a Dremel but in inexperienced hands, a Dremel has ruined many a gun. Would I use a cone-shaped stone or abrasive sanding drum to do the chamber? What about the firing pin hole?

[rintinglen]

The 165 TC has a sharper corner where the flat nose meets the truncated sides than the Lyman which is nicely rounded off.

This is a boolit problem, leave the Dremel in the box.

Given that it runs the Lyman 175 TC and has done so for thousands of rounds, I would be very chary of modifying my pistol. At most, all you need to do is just slightly break the edge of the chamber. 400 grit sand paper and your finger tip will suffice to remove any small burrs or sharp edges. But, given that you have already fired thousands of rounds, I doubt that it is necessary. Check the firing pin hole and extractor for roughness or sharp edges, but I doubt that there is any problem with them. You would have seen it, at least on occasion, previously if this were a problem. For a fix, try loading the round 5 thousandths or so longer. Test the longer OAL and see if it will run, If still needed, run it out as far as the mag will let you go. I would not start whittling on a reliable, well-broken in pistol just to try a different boolit. most likely, A new barrel will cost more than a mold.

[44MAG#1]

I have found, and this is just WHAT I HAVE FOUND in my reloading, handloading, my ammo for semi auto handguns is that I use a heavy taper crimp on ALL of my ammo. It helps to smooth the feeding process in MY opinion, which isn't worth much except to me. A case mouth that forms a ridge for the slide to have to push on reduces the pushing ability. When the cartridge hangs up closely inspect the case mouth and see if it is dinged.
That can speak volumes.
If one is willing to listen.

[Bazoo]

To cut the sharp edge on the chamber, 600 grit paper and your finger is all that's needed. It doesn't need much, and it doesn't need it if it isn't a sharp edge. Shooting the gun won't really do anything for rounding the edge unless you run steel cased ammo. Be certain not to soften the outside lower edge of the barrel. This is supposed to be sharp.

To chamfer the firing pin hole, first strip the slide. Take a pointed dremel stone and attach it to a dowel or rod, and spin it by hand just enough to break the edge. You can drill a hole in a dowel or use a piece of cleaning rod, and black tape the stone in place enough it will spin by hand a few seconds. The small green stone is silicon carbide.

The breech face and extractor are probably okay since the gun runs normally. One thing to consider, yes your gun runs with x ammo, minor modifications to the gun to get it to run with y ammo is acceptable (to me). No different than opening up a revolvers cylinder throats so you can use cast instead of sticking to jacketed.

[35remington]

When the gun jams in this manner the rim is likely nowhere near the extractor so you may eliminate that as a contributing factor.

Life is easiest when you give the gun what it wants to feed, rather than what you think it should feed. A rounded meplat edge is helpful in the 1911 feeding equation.

[mvintx]

Life is easiest when you give the gun what it wants to feed, rather than what you think it should feed. A rounded meplat edge is helpful in the 1911 feeding equation.

There is some wisdom there, yes. Makes you wonder why some of the mold manufacturers insist on designing a boolit with a sharp meplat to ogive transition. After looking at a picture of the H&G 68 I can understand why they feed so well and why my MP 165 TC is problematic.

I did a little fooling around with a longer OAL and find that 1.270" will work in the magazine. I also increased the crimp slightly to .420" diameter. I was running it at .424" to prevent crimping the front driving band down too much. Pushing a dummy round with a .424" case mouth diameter into the chamber at the same angle as the magazine would hang up on what felt like the case mouth at the top of the chamber. When I increased the crimp to .420", it felt much better. With the dummy loaded into the magazine, I retracted the slide just enough so the breech face was just behind the base of the cartridge and released the slide. The round fed without a problem. I won't know if this is the fix until I load some more ammo but I certainly appreciate all of your comments as they helped me understand the mechanics of my problem.

I have a Gold Cup National Match .45 that's been in my safe for almost 15 years. It was a bequeath from a deceased friend and I've never fired it. I have recently considered getting a mold for it and I guess a H&G 68 should be on the top of the list.

[35remington]

This particular jam is much more likely to occur with the first few rounds out of the magazine as they dive deepest in feeding and climb the ramp at the steepest angle. Angularity decreases after fewer rounds remain.

If anyone has seen an original HG mould, it has a much more rounded meplat edge than many current semi clones. It is a very relevant feature.

1911s like longer OALs, rounded ogives and meplat edges.

[44MAG#1]

I have 3 Kimbers 45 Autos that will feed the Saeco 058 which has a .325 inch meplat. I like it so well I have a 230 grain version coming soon. My Glock 45 Autos that will feed the Saeco 058 also. These are stock guns.

[44MAG#1]

I also have a Ruger 1911 10MM That I use a 200 grain cast in that has a .280 inch meplat that feeds slick in the gun seated to 1.245 inch OAL.

[Groo]

Groo here
Remember the rim of the case slids "under" the extractor.....
A "slight" point at the botton of the extractor can hang up the opperation.
Also, remember the 10mm was designed with a TC style boolet [Hp or Fmj]
So a similar type of bullet should work well but needs smooth sides, no step./

[charlie b]

...I have a Gold Cup National Match .45 that's been in my safe for almost 15 years. It was a bequeath from a deceased friend and I've never fired it. I have recently considered getting a mold for it and I guess a H&G 68 should be on the top of the list.

If it is an older one you may want to just get a round nose mold. Father-in-law had an early one and it would not feed any of the SWC designs and even hung up on quite a few jacketed hollow point designs.

If a newer version then the H&G profile is a good bet.

[468]

Respectfully...

So...instead of manipulating the chamber, why not just use the 20lb spring? You said it resolves the problem. It’s not like you’re hiding a more serious issue. Heck, I’d bet if you tested a handful of each, the spring measurements would overlap.

[35remington]

By not directly addressing the problem reliability issues may reoccur. Always best to address the problem rather than covering it up. If spring measurements can be expected to overlap the problem will eventually crop up again.

Submitted by a guy who’s BTDT.

And modifying the gun is last on any to do list unless a known deficiency is obvious. That is a hard learned lesson as well.

[mvintx]

If it is an older one you may want to just get a round nose mold. Father-in-law had an early one and it would not feed any of the SWC designs and even hung up on quite a few jacketed hollow point designs.

If a newer version then the H&G profile is a good bet.

It was made in 1983...a series 80. Does that make it an old one??