45 ACP leading

[HumptyDumpty]

I am getting significant leading in both of my 1911's, when using 230 gr, .452, cast boolits. Now, I ordered a few commercially-produced rounds, with traditional lube grooves before committing to a mould, and had no issues. However, since I don't have a lubrisizer, I decided to go with a projectile optimized for use with Liquid Alox, of which I am using two coats. The lead is range-scrap, and the rounds are travelling at roughly 800 fps, using a 4.6 grain charge of 700x. Thoughts?

[roharmon]

My only suggestion is trying powder coat if at all possible. I shoot 230 grain, sized to .452 with 5 grains of 700X and no leading.

[Outpost75]

If leading with LLA a bullet of adequate hardness (12-143 BHN) does not fit the barrel, and is likely too small, or could be too soft <12 BHN.

Have you cast your chamber? What is the largest bullet diameter which will chamber freely and feed in your pistol?

Typical .45 ACP M1911 military barrels have shallow rifling and work best with milder loads and somewhat harder bullets. Wheelweights are fine at standard velocity and pressure. Your 4.5 grains of 700X sounds about right for wheelweight alloy or its equivalent, but if your range scrap is softer, then I would reduce the load to the minimum which cycles the pistol, about 4 grains should work OK at 700 fps.

[gwpercle]

!. Your boolits are too soft .
Mix the range scrap 50-50 with clip on wheel weights .

2. If the LLA tumble lubed boolits , with harder alloy , still lead you might want to try another method of lubrication . I never had great success with LLA ...in my opinion it's not the best lube in the world ...BUT it should work for 45 acp @800 fps ... there are some tricks you could try ...read the lube stickies .

I gave up on LLA and tumble lube in short order , bought a Lyman 450 Lube / sizer and some good bullet lubes ...one stroke of handle = sized , lubed and check seated boolit ready to shoot , use a good lube (like a Lithium-Beeswax) and I've never experienced a leaded barrel .
Coated boolits hadn't been invented back then but might be another optium... I like my 450 sizer lubricator so will stick with it .... You know ... if it ain't broke I'm not going to try and fix it !

[HumptyDumpty]

Hmm, I've not cast the chambers, nor can I say for certain what the harness of my lead is. The only thing I have to compare it to, is pure lead (I have some for a couple of muzzle-loaders), and it is significantly harder. I did initially develop this load utilizing plated bullets, but I found that cast shoot every bit as accurately, with the exact same charge. That being said, I haven't tried the cast projectiles with any lower charges; maybe I would still get good accuracy. I would be interested in trying some .453 projectiles, but the market seems to be mostly filled with .452, at least in this bullet weight. I am trying to keep things as similar to standard ball as I can.

[Burnt Fingers]

Are you using Lee tumble lube bullets?

If so they could well be too small.

I use Hi-Tek on all my pistol boolits. I run 50/50 wheelweights/pure. It works just fine in everything but my 327 Federal Mag.

Get a different mold, get some Hi-Tek, and get a sizing system. I'm 99.9% sure your leading problems will go away.

Also go into your profile and fill in your location. That way it's easier for someone local to help ya out.

[mdi]

Lot of good answers, but I would start from scratch; slug the barrel and measure the bullet diameter, with micrometers. I've been casting bullets for my 45 ACPs since 1990 and the first and most important step is to get the bullet to correctly fit the gun. BHN is OK to know, but I have used alloys of 50-50 WW and pure, 16-1 alloy, up to Lyman #2 for my 45 ACP bullets (and tried some BHN 18 in my 9mms). At my velocities (classic Bullseye charge under a 225 or 230 gr RN) and I get no leading. I also have used alox and 45-45-10, dip lubing on my Lee TL bullets and my various traditionally lubed 185 gr-230 gr cast, with no leading to speak, when the bullets correctly fit the gun...

[HumptyDumpty]

Are you using Lee tumble lube bullets?

If so they could well be too small.
.

Yes, I am. Do all Lee Tumble-Lube bullets tend to run small? I only shot 25 commercially produced bullets (can't recall the maker, but .452, standard lube, 230 grain), but my bore was squeaky-clean afterwards. With my current rounds, leading is noticeable within a handful of shots. Accuracy is still indistinguishable from plated or jacketed projectiles, until I get past a hundred rounds or so. Then it deteriorates. It is also worth noting (though it did slip my mind initially)that I use this same lead in my .308, and this issue has not manifested itself there. From everything you guys are saying, I am seriously beginning to suspect the projectile size. All my projectiles are currently loaded up; I'll cast a handful tonight, and measure them. If they are undersized, perhaps a phone call to Lee is in order.

[tazman]

I also use range scrap for my handguns. I water quench mine directly from the mold.
If your boolits are undersize, this isn't going to help you. I have the 230 grain round nose, tumble lube mold from Lee and have no issues with leading.
Mine measure about .453 before sizing. I lube one time then run them through a Lee push through sizer. They really don't need much lube if fitted to the barrel properly.
Other boolits, that have standard lube grooves, get run through my lubrisizer. You can still tumble lube them, if you wish, and they will work fine.
Most of my loads are running around 800fps.

The reason I size that boolit down to .452 from .453 is that a couple of my pistols have tight, match chambers and would not feed the larger diameter properly.

[gwpercle]

I've had the same results as you with 45 acp Lee tumble lube designs , it seems a lot of moul;ds do run small ... small boolits will lead up every time . The shallow rifling in 1911 barrels doesn't play well with the tumble lube design , throw in a soft alloy and small diameter...things just go all wrong in a hurry and there is no easy way out . I gave up on the TL 45 acp mould , had a garage sale , put a $1.00 price tag on it and felt bad about taking the fellow's money for it ...I did warn him though !
My advice , conventional bullet design ( like Lee .452-230-TC ) Size your boolits .452 , soft lead - COWW 50/50 for a harder alloy and any good lubricant ... even a tumble in LLA would probably be fine .
Warning ... Lee mould .452-228-1R is another that gave me problems ...the 1R nose profile isn't right ... that's another mould I sold for $1.00 and was glad to see it go .

Let me recommend Lee mould # .452-200-SWC ...this design is a Blue Ribbon winner , after trying this one I've seldom cast any other design . Get a two cavity and try it ...most fall in love with it .

Gary

[onelight]

If your bullets are from range scrap unless there were a lot of cast in the scrap there is a good chance they are to soft , but even soft bullets you can often find a load for that will work with little to no leading like the Speer and Hornady lead bullets if I get much over 700 to 750 FPS in most guns they lead but kept in that low velocity range they shoot well in most guns. If your bullets are .451 to .452 I think you can find a load that will work unless your barrel groove diameter is over size or it has a really rough bore finish hang in there you will find combination that will work.

[mdi]

Not all molds cast the same size as advertised. Differences in size, as cast, range from alloy used, temperature of alloy, temperature of mold and casting method. I believe the Lyman manuals have charts explaining this, and a .002" diameter difference is not rare...

Check the "Mold..." sub forum for "Leementing" and mold lapping...

[gnostic]

Make sure you're not resizing in the bullet seating process. Pulling a loaded bullet will tell the story...

[turtlezx]

shoot as cast if your sizing boolits

[Jniedbalski]

I would also shoot as cast also no sizing. Also I would pull a loaded round to see if it’s sizing down. Then try a harder alloy.

[HumptyDumpty]

Attachment 264860
Because someone asked, and I can't seem to get an image into my PMs.

[C.F.Plinker]

Since you have pure lead available cast a couple of boolits with it. Mark all of the sides with a marks a lot and slug your barrel with the marked up boolit. The slugging should move metal around all of the perimeter. This will eliminate all of the marking with the marks a lot. If any of the high points on the boolit still have the marks a lot on them then they are smaller than the barrel groove diameter. And you have found the problem.

Are you sizing the boolits or just applying the liquid alox to the as cast boolit?

[C.F.Plinker]

FWIW the range scrap I use has a BHN of 8 or so. If I water drop the boolits the hardness increases to about 12. You might try water dropping them and see if this increases the hardness enough to eliminate the leading. This assumes that the boolits are at least groove diameter. If they are smaller you might try a softer alloy to see if they will obturate up enough to completely fill the bore.

[HumptyDumpty]

Since you have pure lead available cast a couple of boolits with it. Mark all of the sides with a marks a lot and slug your barrel with the marked up boolit. The slugging should move metal around all of the perimeter. This will eliminate all of the marking with the marks a lot. If any of the high points on the boolit still have the marks a lot on them then they are smaller than the barrel groove diameter. And you have found the problem.

Are you sizing the boolits or just applying the liquid alox to the as cast boolit?

I have not been sizing them. I've just got my pot to temperature, and am going to cast a few rounds, purely to derive measurements. Just to try and minimize variables, I'll let them cool overnight, as I normally do, before measuring. I'll try some pure lead as well.

[Burnt Fingers]

Are you using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die?