Svarog slugs,,,,

[Longknife]

If anyone can supply me with dimensions for the Svarog slugs I would like to put them in a twist rate calculator and see what twist rate is need to stabilize them. I need dimensions of the Paradox, Gualandi and Zverboy slugs, Thanks Ed

[gpidaho]

Longknife: I have the Svarog Paradox and Zverboy slug moulds. With my alloy (about COWW) the Paradox Measures +or- .730 on all bands The Zverboy measures .732 on the front band .719 on the rear band. I powder coat all my slugs and this adds about .002 Gp

[bikerbeans]

gp,

He will need the length of the slug and wad (if any) and the weight to run a stability calculation.

BB

[gpidaho]

Thanks BB I'll get it This evening On my way out to the hills to shoot a bit. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

Long Knife: It's not so much about what twist rate is needed to stabilize those slugs, it's about what rifled barrels you can get to shoot them thru.

Most 12 ga. Rifled Shotgun Barrels are between 1:34 and 1:36, so that's what you've got to work with unless you can rifle your own.

So far we've seen the best accuracy from STI Slugs (www.slugrus.com) which are non discarding Sabots with a metal insert that stays with the sabot until impact. The sabot picks up the rifling very well and the accuracy is definitely rifle like.

I haven't seen any super duper accuracy from any of the slugs you mention, but the terminal effects are absolutely devastating, and the accuracy is adequate for the intended purpose.

If you aren't set up to cast your own BPI offers some excellent premade slugs including their Thug Slugs and various others made by Gualandi. They also supply all the components to load shotgun shells. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/

The STI slug shown below weighs 550 gr and the group shown was shot at 50 yards from a Browning Auto 5 with a Hastings Rifled Barrel with Open Sights.

Good luck Randy

[megasupermagnum]

As far as I'm aware, they are stabilized from a smooth bore, making the specific rifling twist a moot point. In 12 gauge I've never seen anything other than a 1:28" or 1:35-36 twist. That applies to rifled choke tubes too. No choice in the matter.

[gpidaho]

Paradox slug with wad attached 1.620 OAL 591gr. slug alone .765 AOL 543GR. Zboy 1.435 OAL 570gr. with brush wad and screw slug . slug alone 524gr. .715 OAL Gp

[Longknife]

As far as I'm aware, they are stabilized from a smooth bore, making the specific rifling twist a moot point. In 12 gauge I've never seen anything other than a 1:28" or 1:35-36 twist. That applies to rifled choke tubes too. No choice in the matter.

There is a choice if you are having a custom barrel made. (to shoot the slug without the wad)

[Longknife]

Paradox slug with wad attached 1.620 OAL 591gr. slug alone .765 AOL 543GR. Zboy 1.435 OAL 570gr. with brush wad and screw slug . slug alone 524gr. .715 OAL Gp

Thanks, That is what I was looking for!,,,Ed

[megasupermagnum]

Can you elaborate? Where are you finding a barrel maker who will make a custom rifled 12 bore barrel?

[gpidaho]

Longknife: Sounds like your goals are past mine in shotguns but if I understand what your looking for. I'd opt for the Paradox over the Zboy as the paradox has substantial bands. The Zboy has very small bands that would swag down much to easy for your purpose I believe. This is assuming your looking for a 12 bore rifle application. Gp

[Longknife]

Longknife: Sounds like your goals are past mine in shotguns but if I understand what your looking for. I'd opt for the Paradox over the Zboy as the paradox has substantial bands. The Zboy has very small bands that would swag down much to easy for your purpose I believe. This is assuming your looking for a 12 bore rifle application. Gp

You are right I am exploring the possibility of a bore rifle, shooting these slugs over black powder. I was thinking the Paradox might be the best option as it resembled the original paradox slugs. Which core pin are you using with the paradox slugs, Standard, Special or Universal as that will have some impact on weight. Putting the specs in a twist calculator I came up with an 82 twist For the Paradox. Also the Zboy comes in at just a bit slower twist of 89,,,, Thanks, Ed

[W.R.Buchanan]

ED: look into the Pacific Rifle Company. It is defunct now but their info is still on the web and he made some NICE Hopkins and Allen style rifles in 12 and 20 bore using Alexander Henry Rifling. As I recall his twists were fairly long as the guns were designed primarily to shoot round balls. .A .73 cal round ball is close to the .75 cal balls fired by the Brown Bess Musket that was the mainstay of the British Military from 1720 to 1830.
http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/

Typically Short Fat Boolits only require slow twists, a prime example being the Marlin .44 caliber rifles out there that all seem to have 1:38 twist barrels. This was left over from the .44-40 cartridge loaded with 200 gr boolit that were about as long as they were wide. Still spinning them faster doesn't hurt and we all want Marlin to change the twist to 1:20 so the guns will stabilize longer heavier boolits.

Also look into Tarhunt Rifles which are affiliated with Sabot Technologies Inc. They are bolt action 12 and 20 ga rifles with Shaw Barrels that guarantee sub MOA accuracy. https://www.tarhunt.com/ These guns are no joke and getting hit by a .73 Caliber Copper Bullet would certainly ruin just about anything's day.

Lots to know here.

Randy

[longbow]

Longknife:

I have long had a soft spot for the original H&H Paradox guns which were rifled only in the choke area about 3" long. I have tried to find the twist rate quite unsuccessfully.

As you probably know, the twist rate for bore diameter 12 ga. round ball runs about 1:120" and same for a "square" slug/boolit.

I have read reports of various twist rates for Paradox bores. Ross Seyfried reported 1:36" twist IIRC but in any case very fast for 12 ga. ball or square slug, I have also read of slow twists but no confirmation. So I contacted the London gun room of H&H and posed the question to the gun room manager. While he was very friendly and helpful he said they did not know the twist rate as they are using the original tooling for all new Paradox guns. He said no-one had checked the twist rate.

While the ratchet rifling style is quite deep and aggressive, 1:36" twist seems way too fast to me for round ball, square slug or even the Kynoch style Paradox slugs. I had plans (still do but I'm slow) to make a rifling machine (that's done) to produce a rifled choke tube with deep rifling at 1:72" which is fast for a round ball or square slug but not so fast I think it could be a problem with skidding of a slug already traveling at 1200 to maybe 1500 FPS when it hits rifling. Also, 1:72" is fast enough for an elongated full bore solid or hollow boolit so more versatile than a round ball twist.

I test rifled some 3/4" pipe quite successfully so bought a blank choke tube and bored it then started rifling. Well, the stainless steel choke tube was much harder to cut than mild steel pipe and my cutter being the edge of a file had too much contact so I ground a single point cutter which did pretty well except it was too aggressive and jammed. While getting it to move again I unknowingly moved the choke tube and so the cutter was out of time. Bah! The choke tube may not be ruined yet but I haven't gotten back to it to try to salvage it or replace it and start over. The rifling is shallow so far so I may be able to bore it out and start over with slightly less depth to the rifling.

I id try to find a barrel maker that would cut a slow twist barrel of 1:72" or so but no takers. Even Pacific Rifle company who make slow twist muzzleloader barrels turned me down.

If the full barrel length is rifled, the typical fast twists of 1:36" are readily available and in my brief testing with a borrowed rifled gun worked well with 0.735" round ball, Precision Rifle also used to make a their PileDriver slug that was a full bore Keith style 12 ga. boolit at 610 grs. and it performed well in fully rifled barrel of 1:36" as did the Dixie Tusker at 600 grs. Not sure about performance in rifled choke tubes but they worked well in fully rifled barrels.

If I ever get a fully rifled gun I will be getting a Paradox mould from CBE in Australia. They make a near identical design to the old Kynoch style Paradox boolits at 740 grs.

Currently (when I get back to it) I have bought a Mossberg rifled choke tube with typically shallow rifling and fast twist of 1:36" to try on my single shot gun. I don't have any guns tapped for screw in choke tubes so bought a silver solder on adapter since getting guns reamed and tapped is no small cost and most slug barrels are not tapped for screw in chokes.

Oddly, with the availability of rifled screw in choke tubes I have read very few reports of accuracy with them and full bore slugs. Those posts I have seen have been very inconsistent in results. Of course a guy has to pick slug of wad style or bore size and work on loads to find the best performance but that is where these posts lacked information.

We've had guys like Blood Trail work on a variety of loads and lugs for fully rifled guns then posting what worked and what didn't but I haven't seen the same detail given to rifled choke tubes especially on guns with rifle sights or scopes.

I'll be interested to see what path you take and what your results are as you will likely get there before I will.

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

Here’s my groups from the Svraog segmented slug. I’ve had great success accuracy wise from those molds you mentioned. My gun used was 12 ga USH (whatever the twist is). Worked great.






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[Blood Trail]

But rifle twist is only a small part with accuracy of these slugs. These are plumbata-style slugs where you have to physically attach the slug to the wad. This step it critical to the accuracy of the slug.

If you’re not attached to the wad true and square, your slug won’t fly straight and you’ll key hole.

Watch this video where I do my best to explain. You’ll witness it here:


https://youtu.be/1sC4_Er5KiI


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[Longknife]

Blood Trail , Thanks for that video. I have not seen an in-depth test done on those slugs yet.,,,,Ed

[Longknife]

Longbow, I had to go back over my notes and read some books to polish up on what I know (or don't know) about Paradox and bore guns. G Wright has a chapter in his latest edition of his book about shooting paradox guns. He does an in-depth study on original guns and mics bores and slugs but says nothing about rifling twist or depth. A couple of things that I have learned.(1) The paradox slug needs to be bore size or slightly under bore size. (2)The slug needs to be a BN of 10 to 12 to be able to swedge into the rifled choke with out damaging the barrel. WW are usually 9BHN. (3)This type of slug shooting apparently works with a faster twist than we would normally calculate for a bullet that size. I do wonder if this is because of the slow velocity. When calculating twist the calculator says 1100 too slow, they want 1300 which is impossible with black powder. (3)The only actual specs I have found on paradox rifling is that one person said his rifling is .008 deep which would make the choke .016 or modified. (4) there was company that was doing paradox rifling in , I think a 60" twist but have since discontinued the service. "Darlington Gun Works" (5) I don't know squat.
I have a half finished rifling bench that I need to get out and finish so I can continue my quest for a paradox or bore rifle. I have been working on this for a while. Probably the best option at my age would be to buy one, then I would be shooting next week!

Here are some barrels makers, that I need to contact"

http://thegunworks.com/
They specialize in "Bore" rifles and even offer a 2 bore!

https://www.lothar-walther.com/
Just found this site, it is interesting that they offer shotgun blanks, and BPCR blanks

Bob Hoyt PA'
Bob has a little one man shop going and does all kind of barrel work on obsolete barrels, relines re bores, sleeves, and makes new barres . I have had him rebore and make barrels for me before, TOP NOTCH. He doesn't do the Net tho. I can get you his #

[W.R.Buchanan]

Have a look at ER Shaw Barrels https://www.shawcustombarrels.com/ Probably not cheap?

That is who makes Tarhunt's barrels.

Randy

[longbow]

Well I guess I have old timer's disease! I'd swear I posted and I am sure I wrote a post but maybe didn't submit???!!! Or maybe I post it in the wrong thread???

Oh well!

Anyway, to carry on some with the Paradox and rifling info...

I have read that Paradox bores ran up to about 0.740" and chokes were 0.690" so rifling would be pretty deep at the muzzle anyway at 0.025". I suspect Fosbery went with the ratchet style rifling partly to minimize boolit distortion and likely it is easier on shot charges too. Speculation on my part.

That paradox boolit got squeezed pretty tight with that arrangement but being swaged down as it is engraved would also help keep it from skidding. I'm just a bit baffled by why H&H would have used 1:36" twist (if true) as it is much faster than necessary for round ball or "square" slugs.

Longbow