Win 540 and plus P 38 special.

[smkummer]

Was at a gun show and I could not pass up (2) 40 year 1 lb. cans of this powder still sealed for $5 each. I remember using WC540 in the 70’s for high velocity shotgun shells. Anyway, I am getting ready to load a 30 caliber military can full of plusP 38 specials and noticed a 1997 dated Winchester powder manual states 7.1 grains behind a 158 lead SWC gives something like 950 FPS out of a 4” barrel. Anyone else use or have used this formula?

[P Flados]

Current Hodgdon data (same as their 2009 load data) has a 158 with a 1.455" COL in front of 6.6 gr of HS-6 (same as 540, see below) for 926 fps from a 7.7" barrel (probably a test barrel).

Given that you can not see or feel any difference between +P pressure and 125% of +P pressure, I would be real reluctant to use your 7.1 gr data.

According to Hodgdon:

HS-6 is a fine spherical propellant that has wide application in pistol and shotshell. In pistol, 9mm, 38 Super, 40 S&W and 10mm Auto are some of the cartridges where HS-6 provides top performance. In shotshell HS-6 yields excellent heavy field loadings in 10 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga., and even the efficient and effective 28 ga. HS-6 is truly an outstanding spherical propellant. HS-6 is identical to Winchester's discontinued 540. Available in 1 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

[smkummer]

Ok, thanks for the heads up, I’ll try to find that, was it plus P or standard?

[P Flados]

The 6.6 was for 38 +P, regular 38 is 6.2.

[USSR]

The ultimate .38 Special +P 158gr load, known as The FBI Load, involves 7.0 - 7.2gr of HS-6 (which is exactly what W540 is). I use 7.0 gr and get 940fps out of my 2.5" Model 19. Great score on your part. Hope that helps.

Don

[smkummer]

The ultimate .38 Special +P 158gr load, known as The FBI Load, involves 7.0 - 7.2gr of HS-6 (which is exactly what W540 is). I use 7.0 gr and get 940fps out of my 2.5" Model 19. Great score on your part. Hope that helps.

Don

Well it does. These will almost all be shot in medium frame ( E/I) Colts. With 75% of them being .357 chambering. I was going to look up more current data and got sidetracked loading 20 gauge for cowboy action shooting.

[35remington]

If you are contemplating making +P+ loads in 38 cases to be shot in 357 revolvers you may wish to label them as such so they do not wind up in understrength 38 revolvers. Our memory fails us after long periods of time sometimes.

[USSR]

Note: 7.1gr of W540/HS-6 behind a 158gr lead SWC is not a +P+ load. Winchester lists it as a +P load developing 17.3k psi.

Don

[P Flados]

Note: 7.1gr of W540/HS-6 behind a 158gr lead SWC is not a +P+ load. Winchester lists it as a +P load developing 17.3k psi.

Don

I believe you have "old" data. Current Hodgdon web data and Hodgdon's 2009 pdf booklet both give 38+P max for a 158 with HS-6 (same as 540) as 6.6 gr of HS-6 for 926 fps and 18,700 cup from a 7.7" barrel.

When new data is less than older data, you need to bet that going over the newer max charge may push you over the SAAMI pressure limit. I really do not like to push loads beyond the SAAMI rating for the headstamp. This is especially true when loading big batches of ammo that may sit around for a while and potentially get separated from any "hotter than 38" labeling. This ammo could end up in someone else's low end gun. Do you really need to take chances (or generate concerns) for an extra 50 - 100 fps?

If you want a small quantity of +P+ for a 38SP chamber in a gun that can handle 357 mag pressures, I recommend trimming 357 brass to 38 SP length and then loading to more than 38+P but less than 357 listed data given the higher allowed pressure but the shorter COL.

[USSR]

I believe you have "old" data. Current Hodgdon web data and Hodgdon's 2009 pdf booklet both give 38+P max for a 158 with HS-6 (same as 540) as 6.6 gr of HS-6 for 926 fps and 18,700 cup from a 7.7" barrel.

Darn right I've got old data, but it's from Winchester, the manufacturer of the powder. And since HS-6/W540 is a cannister powder and the Winchester data gives the pressure in psi, you've got to ask yourself why the "Newer" Hodgdon pressure is listed in cup? So, let me fix this for you

When new data is less than older data, ...

you just know the lawyers are involved.

Don

[swheeler]

Was at a gun show and I could not pass up (2) 40 year 1 lb. cans of this powder still sealed for $5 each. I remember using WC540 in the 70’s for high velocity shotgun shells. Anyway, I am getting ready to load a 30 caliber military can full of plusP 38 specials and noticed a 1997 dated Winchester powder manual states 7.1 grains behind a 158 lead SWC gives something like 950 FPS out of a 4” barrel. Anyone else use or have used this formula?

Ponder this- Speer #8- 158 Speer lead SWC- HS6 7.0 grs= 999, 8.0gr 1201 fps

[35remington]

The Speer #8 is another reason to tread carefully when perusing old data as it is the source for extremely hot and often excessive load data. This is well known.

Using old data sources while counseling that newer data is always wimpy does not seem to be the way to go when giving advice on what someone else should do.

It is worthwhile, very much so, to know what the most current data recommends.

[USSR]

Your note regarding the Speer #8 is well taken. However, you will notice that there is no pressure listed for any of their "optimistic" load data. Back to the subject at hand, I maintain that the load data with psi pressure listings by the powder manufacturer is valid despite it being 22 years old.

Don

[P Flados]

And since we are in a silly back & forth,

Lyman Pistol & Revolver, 1978 has no +p data for HS-6, but has both jacketed and cast load data for a 4" vented test barrel:

158 JHP, 6.5 gr, 726 fps, 16,600 cup
158 (358156), 6.7, 922 fps, 16,100 cup
158 (358311), 6.7, 901 fps, 16,200 cup

Do I think that 7.0 - 7.2 is under SAAMI max with some powder batches / primers / brass / bullets / COL / gun. Probably (i.e. yes, unless there was an error in the WW data).

Do I think that 7.0 is above SAAMI max with some powder batches / primers / brass / bullets / COL / gun. Absolutely yes given the Hodgdon data.

Do I think a typical handloader can tell the difference in the above two situations. Absolutely not. Over SAAMI max will not be detectable based on inspection of the the brass or the primer and will not result in sticky extraction in a good gun.

Do I think it is worth the going for the extra fps. Not unless there is a compelling reason to.

As best I can tell there is zero reason to go above current powder maker listed max when the OP stated he was going "to load a 30 caliber military can full of plusP 38 specials".

Do I think it ok for someone to take a chance with going over 38 +P SAAMI pressure for a stout gun if they are careful and there is a real need? Yes, but only where there is a real need and adequate care is taken.

[swheeler]

I did say "ponder" this, you know what they say, those that can't do, teach! Speer #8 came out the year I graduated so I got one then, still have it but seldom use it, how did I make it this many years without blowing up even one gun???

So now I move forward a decade to Hodgdon #25 data manual

38+P 158 gr jacketed, HS6-7.3 grs= 995 fps 19,200 CUP
38 std 158-160 gr lead- HS6-6.5 gr 966-14400 CUP

+p Max is 20000 CUP OR 20000 PSI- which ever you prefer in 38 special

[smkummer]

Gentlemen, thanks for the discussion and your input. I have been around long enough that sometimes a load from an old manual which becomes a favorite is now considered over max.. Most of my loads are within current specs. but with a few exceptions.

My reason for the 30 cal. ammo can of 38 plusP is that I do a lot of 100 yard pistol shooting at metal plates. My 38 plusP last loading was with 5.1 grains unique and about empty. I was going to switch to power pistol which I figured would give me about 100 FPS more. WC540 appears to give the performance of power pistol but with maybe higher pressure. I’ll be mindful of that and the guns it is used in ( official police, trooper, officers model match and 357 colts) The 2 lbs. will be gone in 2 years and most likely I’ll then transition to power pistol.

[smkummer]

Just went and tested my load in both a trooper MKIII and a colt police positive MKV, both a 4”. My chrono in the past was acting up and giving erroneous readings so I didn’t take it. My previous load was 5.1-5.2 grains unique for my bulk 30 cal. ammo can loading of which I had about 20 left. I fired 3 unique and 3 wc540 (7.1 grains) in the same cylinder in each gun. My target was an aluminum can 5yards away with the muzzle pointed downward. Other than sometimes noticing more of a flame ( it’s a cloudy day) with unique, the loads absolutely feel the same. I did find that wc540 load in a 1997 Winchester powder booklet. Anyway, the load is exactly what I am looking for shooting 100 yard steel.

[swheeler]

Good job, you need some chrono data not really I just like to know. I'll bet a good clean burn at that loading now just to test POI and accuracy. 2000 rounds for 10.00 worth of powder, what's not to like!

[dverna]

I am doing something similar and decided I will label all my .38 boxes and .30 cal ammo cans with a HUGE warning label.

All my guns are capable of .357 pressure but there is likely to be a lot of ammunition left when I pass. My son does not have any .38 cal guns either but one never knows were the stuff may wind up.

I doubt a couple of +P, or even +P+ loads, is going to blow up a .38 in good condition but I normally have 500-2000 rounds loaded up. Better safe than sorry.

[umwminer]

Do you Gents know if there is any difference between WC 540 and WC 540 MS ?