1894 Remlin .44 mag accuracy issue

[W.R.Buchanan]

Shuz: is your gun a Carbine or Short Rifle? IE; Barrel Band for Carbine or Fore End Cap for Short Rifle.

Typically most Short Rifles have Octagon Barrels and Carbines have Round Barrels, however the determining factor is generally the way the Fore End is held onto the gun..

Randy

[Shuz]

Shuz: is your gun a Carbine or Short Rifle? IE; Barrel Band for Carbine or Fore End Cap for Short Rifle.

Typically most Short Rifles have Octagon Barrels and Carbines have Round Barrels, however the determining factor is generally the way the Fore End is held onto the gun..

Randy

Randy,
My rifle does not look like either of those you showed. Rather, mine has a straight stock(no pistol grip) yet the fore end has a bbl band that kinda resembles your first photo, yet the band is at the end of the fore end. My rifle also has a bbl band near the front sight like the one in the first photo.
I shot the rifle at 50 yards again yesterday after I had made the tube spring cut down, and filed down the front bbl band screw that was impinging on the underside of the bbl. I loaded it up with 5 rounds each time and shot two 5 shot groups of 7.1g of Trail Boss and an MP-433-640L at .433,Saeco 8 and got 4" groups both times because of 1 flyer from an otherwise 3" group. Then I fired 2/ea 5 shot groups with the same boolit but with 9.0g of Green Dot and once again got 4" groups. I next fired a 5 shot group with 9.0g of Green Dot and a .432 dia. (same MP boolit) but also at Saeco 5 and got another 3" group. Looks like I gotta take the fore end completely off and see what is interfering with the bbl harmonics.

[bmortell]

what lead are you using mine would shoot 4" at 50yd with air cooled ww hardness, half that with heat treated.

[Shuz]

what lead are you using mine would shoot 4" at 50yd with air cooled ww hardness, half that with heat treated.

I used 10:1 (ww:lino) A/C that tests Saeco 8, (Bhn 14-15), which is considered hard by some folks. I can hear treat some to see if it makes any difference. This bbl is a Ballard type, not micro-groove but the twist rate is 1:38.

[JackQuest]

I 'accurized' my 1990 production Marlin 1894 44 Mag using the instruction in the following URL. I found almost all of the afore mentioned problems in that rifle. It did markedly improve grouping, particularly horizontal spread to under double the width of a bullet at 50 yards. Vertical stringing still requiring work. I think the fore end needs even more relief.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

That said, I have found that 200 grain JHP bullets (Hornady XTP) shoot much tighter groups than heavier cast loads. 2 things going on here: the 1:38 twist is just too slow for heavy bullets - from my preliminary testing 200 grains is light enough, somewhere around 240 grains is getting "too heavy" - which is a 20% increase. We won't go into the thinking or lack there of, at Marlin that continues to use this outdated twist.

I am looking for the following:

1 - Anyone who has shot either a Lee 200 grain 44 bullet, or a Lyman 427666 200 grain bullet in the 1894 Marlin. Were you able to get accuracy results close to jacketed bullets?

2 - Has anyone shot any 200 grain bullet with an oversized aluminum gas check sized to 0.432" to 0.433" to see if these will shoot straighter and with less bore fouling? I choose the aluminum GC because they will size onto non-GC bullets.

3 - Does anyone have a custom "light" 44 Mag mould that casts well oversized; 0.432" to 0.433" bullets?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Shuz: your gun is a Carbine.

Randy

[Shuz]

Yesterday I went back down to the range and shot at 50 meters. Looks like I'm getting close to where I wanna be. I shot 1/ea 5 shot group that measured 1.3" for the first 4 shots and then the 5th shot opened the group to 2.96". The load was 10.0g of Unique behind a 275g MP-433-640. OAL was 1.602 and was still 1.602 on the 5th round before it was fired. Therefore, my boolits are not moving from recoil. The chrono showed an ES of 33 an avg of 1358 and an SD of 12. The only real difference between this load and others I fired on other days, was these were fired with gas checks applied in a .433 sizing die. Other designs I tried on previous days were plain based boolits.
I next fired the same load but with MP's penta points in the MP-433-640. The stats were basically the same, and the first 4 shots went into 2.1" around and in the 10 ring, but strangely, the 5th shot either went into exactly the same hole as one of the others, or, it missed the whole target, board and all! As I closely examined the holes, it looks like the last shot missed the whole target.!
More testing to be done with both gas checked designs and plain base designs. Stay tuned!

[bmortell]

have you tried H110 or 4227 2400 anything like that or are you only interested in plinking loads

[Shuz]

have you tried H110 or 4227 2400 anything like that or are you only interested in plinking loads

Those powders will be tried next along with WC 820.

[JackQuest]

Shuz:

Regarding your 275g MP-433-640 bullets with gas checks sized to 0.433" (post #27) - did the swaging bands size down to 0.433" or did only the gas check get sized? Guess another way of asking this is - what was the as-cast diameter of the bullets?

[dverna]

Probably not what you want to hear, but if you miss the whole target, it is your bullets.

Buy a box of 240 gr jacketed bullets and see if the gun will shoot those. Once you establish the gun shoots well, you can start testing loads.

[Shuz]

Shuz:

Regarding your 275g MP-433-640 bullets with gas checks sized to 0.433" (post #27) - did the swaging bands size down to 0.433" or did only the gas check get sized? Guess another way of asking this is - what was the as-cast diameter of the bullets?

The as cast diameter was. 434 and were sized down to .433. The alloy is 1:10 (ww:lino). Saeco 8( Bhn 15-16.)

[JackQuest]

The as cast diameter was. 434 and were sized down to .433. The alloy is 1:10 (ww:lino). Saeco 8( Bhn 15-16.)

Thanks much, that helps fill in some blank spots.

I used a 240 gr bullet that was not sized, micrometer @ 0.433", lubed with liquid Alox, no gas check. Those did not shoot all that well. Yet 200 gr JHP shot quite well, so thinking somewhere between 200 grains and 250 grains is the point where the 1:38 twist won't stabilize the heavier bullets. The gas check now becomes the joker in the deck, but a gas check alone should not adversely affect accuracy unless there is leading. So the hunt continues.

[bmortell]

I don't believe the 1:38 twist problems mine with ballard rifling shoots a .82 length 300gr stable at 100yds its not amazing group but I haven't tried it hard cast which is where my best accuracy with 250gr has been had. but in mine 300gr not heat treated shoots better than 250gr not heat treated. but 250gr heat treated is the best I tried so far at maybe 3 moa 100yds if I had a scope. and this is PC at .4324 no gas check

[JackQuest]

I don't believe the 1:38 twist problems mine with ballard rifling shoots a .82 length 300gr stable at 100yds its not amazing group but I haven't tried it hard cast which is where my best accuracy with 250gr has been had. but in mine 300gr not heat treated shoots better than 250gr not heat treated. but 250gr heat treated is the best I tried so far at maybe 3 moa 100yds if I had a scope. and this is PC at .4324 no gas check

I would certainly be interested in the year of production for that rifle and what the twist rate actually measures. I have not seen concrete reporting of a twist different than the 1:38 found in the microgroove. Have seen some reports on the Ballard rifling, and also reports that it is not that much more deeply cut than the micro-groove.

Sleeving the barrel is not an option, replacing the barrel loses the makers marks, so in general have to find a bullet & load that works as-is.

You really don't realize how much you dislike shooting jacketed bullets until you cast for 2 or more calibers and find your cast loads don't work in that new project.

[bmortell]

mine was purchased new on 11/2017, I can see it does half a twist down the barrel so its definitely 1/38" and on slugs the riffling marks are 4 thousandths deep. 2 different stability calculators would put my 300gr at 1.3 or 1.4 stability so I don't know why people think it cant work. I just think you need magnum powders to increase velocity and therefore rpm. and use hard enough lead that the rifling can work to full effect.

I mainly shoot accurate 43-250AT which I partly designed changing it from the 240AT. I based the nose dimensions by seating a keith at different depths to determine what would feed good but not have as short of a nose as allot of 240's which gives less powder room. first I tried it ACWW PC .4324 and 23.5 imr 4227, and it was about 2 inches at 25yds, then I heat treated 50-50 ww/pb, 'I dont know how hard it is but it dont expand in water so its pretty hard' and 22.5 h110 does 3/4" at 25yds and 23.5 imr 4227 1"

at 100yds with my eyes and iron sights I can hit a 6 inch square plate every time, about 4" group. so I dont really know how accurate it really is because I feel my eyes max precision is about 4 moa.

my main complaint of the marlins is I cant get accuracy and expansion at the same time for hunting. id use my 300gr which would work without expansion regardless but I dont want to sight in for it because it needs single feed as its made to fill a SBH cylinder

[JackQuest]

bmortell:

Thank you for the additional information. I understand the desire for expansion, yet by all descriptions here it appears the harder the bullet the better the accuracy. The very best way to achieve both a hard bullet and expansion is JHP ammo, clear and simple. Sort of limits the options. Jacketed for game, cast for plinking.

More considerations to come, I think.

[bmortell]

nah I cant give in that easily, this is the only gun I loaded for where it requires harder than what expands well. but I can still get around it by making soft points, I tried ones where the front 80gr's or so is 1% tin 99% lead and the rest is 50-50 ww then I heat treat after PC'ing and of course the nose stays soft. problem was when seating them the soft portion bulged very slightly cause I guess my neck tension is pretty high, but I just need to try again with 5% tin for the nose which would expand well but be hard enough to seat.

[JackQuest]

bmortell:

I got into the copper toughened alloying thing posted elsewhere in these forums when I was casting for 45-70. Finally decided that an old injury to my right collar bone out-weighed the fun of shooting that mule and sold the rifle.

That said, have been thinking about casting up some Lyman 429421 (around 255 gr) from that alloy, getting some oversized aluminum gas checks, boring out the spare Star collet I have and seeing what happens. The collet has been sittting doing nothing for a decade at least so no loss if modified. Might make a good winter project.

BTW: for a long time have used a casting table built so I can water drop bullets right from the mold. If you don't size the bigger calibers right away after casting, well in a couple of days they have hardened and are very difficult to push thru the sizer! Thinking this might be the route to prevent excess leading of the micro-groove barrel and get accuracy similar to jacketed ammo.

[mortyg]

When I got my Marlin 44 it did not shoot well. I disassembled it and found the mag tube was putting pressure on the barrel band because the tube was touching an area on the receiver. I ground the receiver where the tube was touching the receiver and made sure I could rotate the tube without it touching. Since then it has shoot well.