.410 for bear defence

[dnepr]

A 410 for bear defence... nor a good plan .
A little back story is needed here , a couple of days ago I went to check a my deer stands , it isn’t deer season yet so I am carrying my Savage 24 410 22 over and under just in case I run into a rabbit or grouse. A few days before that there was a bear attack locally , and it was about a Km ( 0.6 of a mile ) from one of my deer stands .
It was a predatory attack , there hasn’t been enough food for the bears this year and they have been a nuisance around here for a while . After hearing about the attack the wife insisted I take some slugs with me, which I did . Never ran into bear but one had wiped out my bait pile at the stand close to the attack , I will be abandoning that stand.
This is second time I have been out with the 410 and had the very serious potential to run into a bear.
All this started me thinking about 410 slugs , at 1/5 oz ( or 90 ish gr ) I Have concerns about their ability to penetrate on a large bear,
Obviously taking a 12 gauge or a highpower rifle are much better defence but I do like hiking about for small game with the 410
My question does anyone have experience with 410 slugs on heavier game , or a load with good penetration on heavier game

[dnepr]

Just to clarify I am talking black bears not Grizzly

[Outpost75]

A .410 slug only weighs about 87-90 grains and has energy similar to a .32-20 rifle with black powder loads.

If the First Nations locals up there still use their .32-20s for bear guns, then I guess you are adequately armed.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Really? I have some Federal .410 Slugs that are 125 gr and run at 1725 fps. These are similar to a .357 mag rifle except a .357 would have a .158 gr bullet or larger. These are the most powerful slugs available for the .410 and yet not quite as powerful as a common pistol..

If you are hunting Bears from a Treestand your shooting distances would be less than 50 yards? Right?

Why not just use a 12 ga shotgun with 1 oz slugs at 1300 fps (Low Recoil) and be done with it and considerably safer as well?.

I understand the combo gun, but I think looking around for one that is either .22/12 or even .22/20 might be a better option as you would then have a powerful enough option to deal with any bear if needed.

My .02

Randy

[TNsailorman]

Depends. Where you hit him is always critical on a black bear. A .410 slug moving at 1200 or more fps should put down a black if you hit him right. It should stop him if you hit him in the shoulder. I am talking 3" .410 slugs here. I never used 2 1/2" shells in one. I got my eyes opened when I was 17 by a neighbor who took 2 mild steel plates and set them up at 30 yards distance. He shot one with a 3 dram 12 gauge load of number 7 shot. He repeated on the other plate with the .410 using 3" shell in number 6 shot. The .410 made very noticeable deeper indentation in the plate than the 12 gauge. I have always respected the .410's power. If it has any downside, it is the lack in the number of shot the shell will hold, not power. I have hunted squirrels for many years with a .410 that was given to me for my 6th birthday. Inside 30 yards it can be deadly but as the range increases, the shot spreads too thin. But a slug is a different matter. I am a longtime big fan of the .410. The only limitation that I see is with your choice, a basically single shot firearm in a dangerous situation. A .22lr will be of little help in a tough situation like a bear. That would give me pause. Almost no one shoots as well under extreme pressure as when they have plenty of time and no pressure. james

[longbow]

Just my opinion but I wouldn't depend on a .410 slug for bear defense if I had other options. I live in bear country in the West Kootenays of B.C. and we regularly have bears in our yard in spring and fall. I live right in town too but on the Columbia River bank so the bears walk the shore and come up to forage and find garbage so are frequent visitors.

I have never had a problem with black bears except one almost run in with a sow and cubs one summer when I went fishing. I took my dirt bike to an out of the way spot and surprised the bears on my way. The sow reared up at me but I stopped and turned around so that was the end of the encounter. She didn't charge but had she things might have turned out differently. In that case I wouldn't have had time to grab and shoulder a gun anyway.

I have run into lots of black bears in the bush locally but as soon as they recognize human they take of. A little different story when we moved to Kemano on the North Coast of B.C. There are lots of grizzlies there and lots of black bears. I kinda figured I knew black bears so wasn't too concerned with them due to Kootenay experience. Wrong! After finding out how aggressive they are around Kemano I have to guess that having so many grizzlies around toughens up the black bears. They did not tend to run when they saw humans and in fact more likely to come over and introduce themselves!

Back in the Kootenays now and finding both local black bear and grizzly populations are increasing... or at least I and others are seeing more. I got a bit concerned so decided to get a dedicated 12 ga. slug gun for bear protection when in the bush.

I have a Marlin .44 mag. 1894 and considered taking that but not only do I think .44 mag. is on the marginal side for bear protection, It has been suffering from the "dreaded Marlin jam" making it undependable for feeding. I think I have that issue solved now but still consider .44 mag a bit light for bears... at least large aggressive bears coming at me.

A 90 gr. soft 90 gr. .410 slug would not be my choice for a charging bear! Especially in a single shot. I'm sure many bear sized critters have been killed with .410 slugs and similar performing rounds in BP cartridge days but it is a lot different hunting and shooting the bear in the vitals than taking a fast shot end on at a charging bear. And it is unlikely you would shoot unless the bear was charging.

In my opinion much better to take a 12 ga. with some hard cast round balls or hard cast slugs for bear protection. Take some light loaded rounds along for grouse or other small game. A light loaded 3/4 or 7/8 oz. 12 ga. load is not going to destroy a small critter you intend to eat.

Like I said, just my opinion.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Dnepr: Oldest joke in the world, I know. If you're facing a charging sow with a 410 single shot, make sure you're wearing some bells. That way when search and rescue find the bells in bear scat they can all go home. Gp

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Dnepr, I would not depend on a .410 and the bear is only getting bolder day by day ! !
Listen to your wife for a change and give her a treat for being careful.




I'll suggest you get a 20 ga High Power Nitro Express, please for your own safety.

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Valornor]

A single shot .410 is definitely not my choice for bear defense. It’s likely better then a sharp stock, but I’m not sure by how much.

Will it kill a bear? With ideal shot placement, the right load and the right distance, yes. However when you are defending yourself from anything it is likely not “Ideal” circumstances.

In my opinion a six shot 357 Mag or 10mm with a 4-6in barrel would be an absolute minimum. I think there would be plenty of people who say a 44 Magnum is the minimum size.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[JBinMN]

While the 410 gauge is the same as the 41 caliber, I still do not think that "I" would carry that .410/22 combo (I call it a "trapper gun")for self defense for a bear. While it is good for small game/birds & finishing off critters in a pan trap, I would not depend on it for my protection against bears. I would carry something larger for that.

My suggestion would be for you to do the same and carry something a bit more powerful in a handgun if you still wish to carry that firearm when going out to check on stands, etc.
I realize you are in Canada & may not be able to have a handgun, so, were "I" in that situation & had a 12ga, or even a 20ga., (preferably pump/auto with more than one load), & loaded with some slugs, that is what I would carry if I were concerned about bears. Even carrying birdshot & slug alternately would be better, IMO, than the trapper gun.

Anecdotes - I have friends(& youngsters in their family) who hunt whitetail deer with .410 bore shotguns & slugs, but most are not having to deal with bears in the area & particularly not ones who are used to humans or consider them as a food source. Most folks use 20 or 12 guage for deer around this area of MN that is a "shotgun/muzzleloader only" deer hunting zone due to the higher populations density of folks & such.

I have another friend, who, although I have not seen him in a long time, has a full mount grizzly bear in his living room that he took with a 41 Magnum revolver, (I think it was a Ruger Blackhawk, IIRC) in Alaska, long ago in the 80's. He told me his guide had a backup 12 ga. when he was carrying the 41 mag.. He told me that if the guide had not had something to back him up more powerful than that 41 mag, then he would not have hunted with his handgun. I thought he was kind of crazy, but then again I have another friend who is N.A./First Nation(Ojibwa) who regularly hunts bear with a 45# recurve bow. I think he is kind of crazy as well. To each their own.

G'Luck with whatever you decide to do, but please stay safe, as it is better than the alternatives.

[6pt-sika]

Do what you want ! But if it were me I’d be carrying my circa 1966 Marlin First Model 444 that I lopped the barrel off at 19” and have a Leupold Vari XII 1-4 mounted and loaded with one of my Ranch Dog adaptions 432-325GC pushed pretty hard with H-322 . If I thought the blackies were BIG bruisers I might even opt for my other Ranch Dog adaptions 432-365GC or 432-375GC .

[Markopolo]

why not just continue to carry your 410, but chest strap a 44 mag to a holster like I do...???? good backup, and doesnt get in the way of your adventures..

[Buzz Krumhunger]

Here is a link to an interesting story about the record book grizzly killed in 1953, by an Indian woman who used a .22 single shot. Not that I’m advocating the use of a .410 for bear defense.


https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bel...zzly-and-more/

[bikerbeans]

The factory 410 slugs I have cut open (rem, fed and win) are soft lead. If you hit big bone I don't think you will get much penetration.

BB

[psweigle]

The ammo choice isn't a deal breaker, but in a break open single shot platform, it becomes a deal breaker. I would (and do) carry a side arm loaded with ammo more suited for bear defence.

[dnepr]

Yes the 410 is a poor choice for bear defence , and if I knew I was going to run into a bear I would have my 444 marlin over my shoulder and a 12 gauge in my hands . I am in Canada so handguns are out unless you get a special carry permit generally only issued to people who work in bear country eg surveyors . I could have brought a rifle with me but a Conservation officer could decide that I am hunting deer out of season ... they can make that sting bad if they want... I will take my chances with the bear .
I am just thinking of something to have when I am wondering the woods after small game as an emergency plan ,
The 2.5 inch imperial 1/5 oz slugs I had this time were definitely less than ideal but a far cry better than the 7.5 shot I had last time I was in the bush and concerned about bears .
If bear problems persist around here I will have to switch to a 12 gauge for small game and carry slugs, but I will sure miss the little 410 for wondering about

[NyFirefighter357]

This is why I use my 22mag/20ga Savage 24. Our hunting property now has some resident bears. Although 12ga is always an option.

[GhostHawk]

20 Ga Pump gun with slugs or buckshot would drop a bear fine, with a couple of shels to spare.

A single shot .410, not sure I'd trust it.

However, if you have no large bore pistol or larger ga shotgun it beats the heck out of nothing.

But you do need to use what you have. If you deer hunt I am assuming you have a better rifle. I'd carry it.

[Geezer in NH]

.410 Brenneke slug, or hand load a .395 0r .400 ball per Ballistic products book at 26-2700 FPS way better than a 22lr and a normal .410 slug.

Personally I would use a 12 gauge and carry a couple of my own hand loaded round balls [in the 2 upper pockets of my small game vest as I have done for 40 years] in the same shells the shot is in to sneak by any no slug rules.

Or for the naysayers on that use the same 12 birdy shot up close and personal if you do not panic fall into a stupor and let the bear have a meal.

Living where I do I would just use the Glock I also have on me at all times.

[dverna]

I doubt the OP can carry a pistol in Canada.

Ditch the 410 for your scouting duties. But a cheap beater 12 ga and load it with slugs. Carry it if encounters with aggressive bears are possible. Being armed for a possible grouse is a very poor option.

If you can carry a pistol, a .22 for grouse will address that need.