Hi
Can one of you learned gentlemen tell me the rate of twist in a Uberti .44-40?
Hi
Can one of you learned gentlemen tell me the rate of twist in a Uberti .44-40?
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bor...ist-Uberti.htmOriginally Posted by JeffinNZ
Take a kid along
If its an old model 1866, I'll be able to tell you tomorrow, because mine is due back from the gunsmith's.
"I'll help you down the trail and proud to!" Rooster Cogburn.
"Slap some bacon on a biscuit and let's go! We're burnin' daylight! " - Will Anderson (John Wayne) "The Cowboys."
SASS Life Member No 82047
http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/
Psycholigist to Sniper; 'What did you feel when you shot the felon Sargeant?'
Sniper to Psycholigist; 'Recoil Ma'am.'
From my Irish Ancestors: "You've got to do your own growing, no matter how tall your grandfather was."
Originally Posted by Marlin Junky
MJ.
FWIW, I've owned the Model 94 Cowboy rifles in 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 44-40, and 357 Mag. With the exception of the 357, none of the others would shoot cast worth a damn. It's a real shame also as the rifles themselves are great, and the fix is so simple. They just have to stop "freeboring" their chambers. The only way I've been able to get them to shoot is to seat boolits out far enough to engage the rifling. That in turn makes it impossible to work them through the action because of the length.
The 357 shoots pretty well with the 180 gr RNFP Lee that I bought in one of the group buys here, but is still nothing to write home about. My next try in a lever gun is going to be a Rossi 92 I think. Hoping they will offer the 454 Casul in the 24 in barrel. If I can get one lever gun to shoot cast consistantly inside 3 inches at 100 yards, I'll be happier than a pig in Sh!t.
Anyhow, that's my experience, your mileage may vary.
Denver,
I know those who are shooting .457" boolits through the 1894 in .45 Colt with great results. They have told me filling the throat is the key. I'm afraid that's not going to be so easy with the .44 Remington unless I take the time to design molds for it. Therefore, I'm not going to risk the purchase. One of the reasons I got interested in the 44-40 was due to the narrower groove dimensions and I thought it would be easier to find commercial plain base molds that would produce good results. Now I understand that Marlin has used the same bore/groove dimensions in the 44-40 as they are in the 44 Rem. Very disappointing, Marlin.
MJ
On my .44-40, a 1910 Win.'92, the groove is .429", but the chamber is so tight a .428" bullet is the largest thing it will accept.
I have used Rel7 with a 230gr SWC, gc and a 310 gr RF gc.
Used 22gr for both and got 1100fps + - with both bullets. Yeh , I know. Oh well.
I gotta load my 1866 with BP and take it hunting. I think I'll use the Lee 200Gn RNF cast with pure lead. Should be ok on wild dogs, pigs and small deer.
"I'll help you down the trail and proud to!" Rooster Cogburn.
"Slap some bacon on a biscuit and let's go! We're burnin' daylight! " - Will Anderson (John Wayne) "The Cowboys."
SASS Life Member No 82047
http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/
Psycholigist to Sniper; 'What did you feel when you shot the felon Sargeant?'
Sniper to Psycholigist; 'Recoil Ma'am.'
From my Irish Ancestors: "You've got to do your own growing, no matter how tall your grandfather was."
Ya gotta love it when I reopen a 12 year old topic!!!
The original poster asked about +P loads in the 44-40. Well lets take a look and see what we got in the year 2018!
Why +P, +P+ loads....because it is historic from 1903-1938! Lets take a look at what today could be considered +P and +P+ loads for this wonderful cartridge.
Lyman's 49th manual lists loads not suitable for weak action weapons. This is also true for the 45 Colt and the 45-70, Lyman also lists high pressure loads for those too. If you desire to replicate original black powder ballistics with modern components (Smokeless Powder) as well as the 1903-1938 "High Velocity Loads" for the 44-40, Lyman's 49th manual has it listed! Since Marlin builds a superior rifle, the 1889 and 1894, they are well suitable....and Lyman has the loads listed!
On page 299 Lyman lists the following:
For Group I Rifles (weak actions)(Lyman lists ten rifles).....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40. Lyman shows 16gr of 2400 produced 1,183fps @11,900 psi (CUP)
These are the modern normal loads. They produce slower velocities than the original 44 WCF black powder loads but are very similar to the ballistics produced by the 1860 .44 Henry rimfire cartridges.
Here are the Group I rifles Lyman list as weak actions;
Group 1 (weak actions)
Winchester Model 1873
Whitney Kennedy lever action
Colt-Burgess lever action
Marlin Model 1888
Colt Lightning pump action
Replica Model 1873s (And I'd include replica Henry and 1866s in 44-40)
Remington No 2 Rolling Block Single Shot
Ballard No 2 Single Shot
Stevens Model 44 Single Shot
For Group II Rifles (strong actions)(Lyman lists nine rifles).....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40. Lyman shows a loading of 18gr of 2400 produced 1,380fps @14,500 psi (CUP)
They produce original velocities but produce slightly higher than max pressures. They could be considered +P loads.
Lyman also shows a loading of 20gr of 2400 that produced 1,638fps @19,000 psi (CUP). Don't forget, back at least in 1910, the Winchester manufactured HV load produced 22,000 psi (CUP) This loading exceeds the 1903-1938 era High Velocity Load's speeds but remain under the 22,000psi CUP pressures produced by Winchester. They could be considered +P+ loads due to the excessive high pressures.
Here are the Group II rifles Lyman list as strong actions;
Group 2 (Strong Actions)
Winchester Model 1892 (& replicas)
Marlin Model 1889
Marlin Model 1894
Remington Keene Bolt Action
Remington Model 14 1/2 pump action
Winchester Single Shot rifles Remington No 1 Rolling Block single shot
Remington "Baby Carbine" single shot
Stevens Model 44 1/2 single shot
One of John Kort's early writtings
22 Dec 2006
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...l=1#post129860
44-40 brass is not weak. I have shot over 1,000 rounds of HV loads documented on over 205 targets. I have about 100 cases that have been reloaded many times as HV loads, many not documented. I have only had one case failure, a small perpendicular crack near the mouth I believed caused by a slight crumple when seating the bullet. John quoted 3,000 rounds and never mentioned a case failure that I know of."...but back in 1895, no less authority than Winchester Repeating Arms Co., deemed that smokeless ammunition was fine for use in their toggle link 1873 Winchester when they introduced their .44 W.C.F. smokeless cartridge. The cartridge boxes indicated that this ammunition was to be used in their models of 1873 and 1892.
U.M.C. introduced their .44-40 smokeless ammunition in 1896.
The original smokeless .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridges were loaded with DuPont No. 2, a bulk smokeless powder. 17grs. by weight was the charge and filled the same powder space as 40 grains of black powder.
By the early 1900's, "Sharpshooter" smokeless was used in 15 gr. charges. Sharpshooter was a dense smokeless powder, not too dissimilar in burning rate than today’s 2400. As a dense powder, there was airspace in the case.
The only problem I see with using smokeless powders in a toggle link action, is that if a faster burning powder is used (Bullseye, Unique, etc..) it is possible to accidentally double charge a case which would lead to a catastrophic failure.
Also, regarding Winchester 1892's, I have read that barrels without the "Special Smokeless Steel" are good to 28,000 psi. W.H.V. ammunition which was intended for the W 1892, was factory loaded to 22,000 p.s.i. THEREFORE, I would not exceed W.H.V. specs in these rifles. Constant use in these rifles of ammunition loaded to 28,000 p.s.i. could lead to metal fatigue and, ultimately, failure.
It is by far best to use slower burning smokeless powders (like the original) where a double charge could not be loaded into the case. Alliant has published data for Blue Dot, 2400, and REL 7 in the .44-40 at black powder pressure. A double charge of either of these powders would definitely be noticed. 4227, 4759 and 5744 are other powders where it would be almost impossible to double charge a case.
I have an original 1873 Winchester made in 1882. I purchased it 6 years ago. I have fired over 3,000 rounds of smokeless ammunition loaded with the above powders along with about 500 rounds of black powder cartridges. It is as tight today as it was when I purchased it. ~John Kort"
Lyman has these loads listed for strong action rifles, not weak actions. Revolver loads are in another location, all normal loads. I have shot 20gr of 2400 in my magnum framed SAA with the 44-40 cylinder and it rocks like a mule BUT nowhere near even 44 magnum loads.
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 10-28-2018 at 02:33 PM.
Back when I had a Rossi 44-40 I tried some of those +P+ Lyman loads with 180gr jhps. Holy Cow. The barrel/mag band front sight started creeping off from the recoil. Not fun at all.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
On a side note. on page 300 in the same Lyman's 49th, there are loads for the 427098 bullet. Powders used for this bullet are Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique. Again pistol powders. Velocities are higher for the Green Dot and Unique but the pressures are higher for the Red Dot @ 21,900 psi CUP. An accidental double charge with these powders could result in 60,000+ psi catastrophic results.
Although these are listed for Group II (strong action) rifles, as I said...I use these type loads in my magnum frame revolver. We know the frame will take the punishment of 44 Magnum loads that reach 40,000 psi CUP but what about the cylinders? The cylinders are all made from the same steel. The 44 magnum external cylinder wall thickness ranges between .0960" to .1025". The 44-40 cylinder wall thickness is essentially the same ranging between .0960" to .1015". Both cylinder internal chamber to chamber walls are .0010 difference of each other. One would think that both cylinders would be for the cartridge with the measurements being so close but there is enough difference to be different. The cartridge base diameter difference between the two is .010". Both cylinders are fluted. As I have mentioned before, I have no desire to go higher than historical pressures (22,000psi CUP) in the 44-40. I have shot multiple loads of factory 180gr 44 mags and they rock, they look like a full fledged dragsters with flames reaching out both sides of the cylinder gap. The 44-40 shooting 22,000psi CUP 200gr loads rocks like a mule, unpleasent to shoot...but doesn't come anywhere close to the recoil of the 44 mag 180gr loads.
I have a Miroku '73 in this caliber, and I've always cast and loaded RCBS 200 grainers. Now, I have a full box of Oregon Trail brand, 225 grainers. I can't find any load recommendations for this heavier bullet, though I know a lot of the commercial cowboy loads use it. Can someone recommend a good powder and powder weight? I don't need it to hunt, just shoot good.
In the .44-40 a case capacity charge of RL7 to fill the case with 1/8" compression with bullet seated is safe in the Winchester 1873 clones with 200-215 grain bullet, about 23.5-24.5 grains depending upon brass. In the 1892 clones the same volume of H- or IMR4198 with up to 240-grain bullet, about 22 grs.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
If you are just looking for a plinker, trailboss will work just fine. 6.4gr for a 200gr bullet gives 13,000psi CUP. If there is an accidental double charge, the powder will overflow the case. There is no reason 6.0gr wouldnt work for the 225gr. Groups are still fun with Trailboss.
Like Outpost said, if looking for good groups, velocity, hunting and 100 yard groups...try reloder 7, that is my go-to powder.
if you choose Reloder 7, find a fired case and open the mouth with a cowboy expander die. The cowboy expander die is designed for the .430 diameter bullets. If you can, resize a 225gr bullet down to .427, or as small as you can so you can insert and extract the bullet with your fingers. Fill the case with Reloder 7 and insert the bullet until you can get the bullet to freely sit on top of the powder to where if crimped, sits even with the crimp groove. Then dump and weigh the powder charge. You could also use the "dowel method" to get a measurement. Different bullet designs seat deeper than others so your weight charge will very. Some may not even touch the base of the bullet. As outpest75 mentioned, 23.5gr-24.5gr will work fine.
23.5gr of RL-7 is max for a 240gr bullet to remain under 13,000 CUP.
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 10-29-2018 at 08:19 AM.
in the 20's and 30's the factories were making hot loads for the .44-40 .38-40 and .32-20. guns started blowing up. they had to stop making them.
The older Winchester 1873s, Colt Lightnings, etc. were black powder actions.
There was never any issue firing the HV loads in the Winchester 1892 and they are fine in the modern clones, but the 1873, even when produced with modern materials as the repops are, is still a weak action.
The following loads are fine in the Marlin 1894, Winchester 1892 and modern clones:
Table 1
Velocity of Typical .44-40 Winchester loads in Rossi Puma with 20” barrel:
Ammunition___________________Vel@15ft, Sd, ES
Winchester 200 JSP factory load____1158 fps, 18 Sd, 51 ES, current production
Handloads all in Starline cases, with Remington 2-1/2 primers
Matts Bullets 215 LFN 35 Goex 3Fg___1172 fps, 28 Sd, 98 ES - Bullet .430"
Remington 200 JSP, 24.5 RL7_______1355 fps, 22 Sd, 74 ES - Matches pre-WW2 loads with Sharpshooter powder
Hornady 200 XTP, 28 IMR4198_"C"__1642 fps, 20 Sd, 63 ES - +P for Marlin 1894 and Winchester '92
Matts 215 LFN 28 IMR4198_"C"_____1701 fps, 12 Sd, 41 ES - +P for Marlin 1894 and Winchester '92
Matt’s 215 LFN 7.8 Red Dot________1273 fps, 15 Sd, 57 ES - +P reduce 1 full grain for Group 1 rifles.
Accurate 43-230G 7.2 Bullseye_____1167 fps, 8 Sd, 25 ES - +P, reduce 1 full grain for Group 1 rifles.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
44-40 +P ? buy a 44 magnum before someone gets hurt IMHO
I am going to paraphrase (the noun forum) something I just saw recently. Cause I know that ya'll know I can't come up with this good stuff on my own!!
Lyman has been providing equipment and information since 1878! Lyman is well known for this history thus many handloaders trust and value their information. When I load my (yes, Savvy Jack's) Winchester 1886, I use Lyman's published data not safe for the Trapdoor Springfield rifle. I am using data for the Leveraction rifles. Lyman lists three levels of power, Normal, +P and +P+ although they do not use those designations, the power levels are for the Trapdoor Springfield, LeverActions and the "Rugers".
Loading for the 44-40 is not much different. Although Lyman lists two "Groups" for the 44-40 rather than three as is with the 45-70, there are realistically three levels...low pressure, mid pressure and high pressure. That would be Normal, +P and +P+ unless there are specific pressure increases that represent the "P" symbols.
Simply using trusted published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the Marlin 1894CB doesn't mean someone is trying to make a 44 Magnum out of this cartridge nor do they need to go get a 44 Magnum. Quite frankly casting an accusation or even suggesting such shows an actual lack of knowledge, an ignorance so to speak, of the true difference between the 44-40 and 44 magnum's performance and pressures.
So lets take a look at the 44-40 and the 44 Magnum "in general".
44-40 (200gr)
Level One
13,300 CUP SAAMI MPLM, Normal (1,150 fps)
Level Two
18,000 CUP, +P (1,400 fps)
Level Three
22,000 CUP, +P+ (1,600 fps)
44 Magnum (200gr)
Rifle - No Pressure Data (should be around 18,500 CUP - 40,000 CUP)
1,600 fps - 2,100fps
Handgun Pressures (200gr)
18,500 CUP - 40,000 CUP
However, we all know the 44 magnum is famous for it's 240gr bullets, the purpose of it's design.
22,100 CUP - 40,000 CUP
So there really is no comparison between what (at least I HAVE accomplish with) the 44-40 and the 44 Magnum. Key information here is PRESSURE, not velocity!
44-40, 18,000 to 22,000 CUP
44 Magnum, 22,100 to 40,000 CUP
And to conclude...
If I wanted more rifle power then the 22,000 CUP allows for the 44-40, rather than get a 100-150 yard 44 Magnum rifle........the 45-70 is so much more efficient....of which I do have!!!
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-02-2018 at 11:01 AM.
Sometimes we are slow learners
From a 1973 loading manual - 44/40 winchester 200 grain J boolit 29 grains Dupont 4227 - 2000FPS
I dont think that is a very intelligent policy for use in a vintage 92 winchester but that was the target audience at the time
Should be a dividing line between original model 92's and modern steel replicas - Rossi, Browning etc - steel and manufacturing processes have changed a lot in a hundred years.
Lots of Expert Gurus done (and advocated) some pretty stupid stuff along the way.
My opinion is not wanted ? too bad you got it!
This is not 1973, this is 2018 and the current Lyman's 49th Handloading Manual says otherwise. Too bad you are a slow learner, please use current updated manuals.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post4488015
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |