Kev, use the drill/file to reduce your loaded case necks INSTEAD of running them back in the size die. May be what is happening is by re running them up the size die is you are inadvertantly sizing your .410 back to too small of a boolit by doing so. I would recomend taking not more then 6 or 7 cases to turn down the neck area with your file and drill. These will tell you if this will result in useable functioning accurate rounds.
Also that rear sight looks very familiar. My Sharps has an identical sight except mine is a full buckhorn. I like mine a lot. I use it with a higher blade on the front. In this manner i use the rear as a barrel mounted peep sight with the full buck horn ears. When i require further range i hold the blade top directly between the ears of the rear and this allows a fast 150 yard direct hold. It is fun to use the ladder to lob in the further shots and surprising how good it works.
STOP. Dont thin the necks yet. IF A BOOLIT DROPS INTO A FIRED CASE, YOU DO NOT HAVE A TIGHT NECK CHAMBER. Size and expand a case...dies it chamber? Seat a boolit with no crimp...then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber.
I still believe that your problem was overcrimping causing the case to bulge/buckle. I think if you set up your seater correctly, your problem will go away.
What do you mean expand a case? Flare the mouth? If I drop a fired case in the chamber it will go in. I know why issue was that I over crimped. Even if I resized the case, seated the bullet with a light crimp it still has a chance of falling in the case, not with the recoil, but when I feed the rounds through the loading gate. The bullets get pushed back in.
I apologize as I cant remember your setup for loading.
In regard to your previous post, tube fed rifles dont necessarily need ammo heavily crimped to keep boolits from setting back. Sufficient neck tension (brass inner diameter 0.001-0.002" less than boolit diameter) is plenty to hold boolits firmly. For tube fed rifles, neck tension plus a light crimp is plenty to keep the boolit from setting back under spring tension.
Do you have a full length sizing die set? Assuming you do, screw the sizing/decapping die into your press until it touches the shell holder. Then size the case and decap the fired primer.
We dont need to prime or add powder, lets just load a dummy round.
At this point the case is resized, a boolit should not enter the case mouth due to the "sizing down" of the case. If a boolit will enter the case after it has been sized, we need to address that problem.
Now we need to expand the case mouth. I use an expander with a lower sectioned that is 0.001-0.002" smaller in diameter than the boolit I want to shoot. The expander has a section near the top with a flare and larger step that is 0.002-0.003 larger than my boolit diameter. When I "expand" the case neck, I adjust the expander so that the larger step enters the case mouth by 0.020" or so. That way the "flare" allows me to seat a boolit without shaving lead.
To go over what we've set up so far...you have to size the case so that the ID is 0.002-0.010" less than boolit diameter. This gives neck tension to firmly hold the boolit. If too small, we have to expand and flare the case so we can seat a boolit without shaving lead.
As long as the expander is less than boolit diameter, the case will have enough grip on the boolit that a crimp may not be necessary.
You should have some sort of flaring die or expanding die with your die set.
Now that we have a sized case that we have neck expanded and flared to accept a boolit, let's seat a boolit with no crimp. Back your seating die out 2-3 turns from your normal setting. Then start your case and boolit into the die. Adjust the seating plug downward, but not the die body until you get the desired boolit seating depth. Check to see if it will chamber. It may or the "flare" might bind up if excessive.
Now let's remove the "flare" on the case mouth. Back out the boolit seating stem a lot. We don't want it to contact the boolit at all in this step. With the dummy cartridge in the shellholder and the press ram raised to the top, screw the die body down until it contacts the dummy cartridge. Make sure the seating stem isnt making contact, only the die body. Now, screw the die body down 1/8 turn. Remove the dummy and check the flare/crimp with caliper and looking at it. If the flare hasn't been removed or a sufficient crimp achieved, screw the die body down another 1/8 turn and keep checking. Once the flare is removed, your dummy cartridge will chamber.
By making and keeping a dummy cartridge, you can set up your die easily so that you can seat a boolit in one operation and crimp in a second operation.
This crimping and seating in separate steps works really well when the boolit used doesn't have a crimp groove.
Without a crimp groove, during seating, the brass case mouth digs into the boolit and as the case is crimped further, the brass case mouth is pushed down with the boolit. The brass has to go somewhere, so it bulges the case outward below the case mouth (exactly what has happened to your cartridges previously).
I am typing this on a smart phone, so please forgive the typos.
Setting up the dummy cartridge and seating without crimping, then crimping in a separate step will solve the bulged case issue.
If you still have questions, we can address them individually.
I don't know anyone who hasn't overcrimped a case and bulged the neck or shoulder starting out as a newbie. Been there myself. Well get you going. Just be patient.
Last edited by BK7saum; 07-23-2018 at 10:10 AM.
BK7saum,
That was a very good set of step by step instructions.
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Thanks for all the info. Il give it a try tomorrow! You aren't the firs tone to mention my expander plug in the die set. Someone told me to measure the diameter of it. If its to large, it could open up the neck again and that could cause the boolits to drop back in the case. Il take calipers and measure it tomorrow. Its 1am for me now, I need sleep.
One other thing. I noticed that you are not fully resizing the cases because someone said it will shorten case life. While excessive sizing can, you still have to size the case enough to reduce the ID of the brass to at least 0.002" under boolit diameter.
Once we have a dummy round created, we can get your sizing operation set to size the case just enough so the the expander of a proper diameter has light resistance entering the case.
Kev - BK7saum said "then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber. " What he meant was: "then in small increments turn the seater die in with the seating stem backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber."
The expander is not part of the seating die and is used before you seat the bullet, which might have added to your confusion.
There are several things you were going to check or were asked to check. Can you post the results?
1. What is the diameter of your bullet now?
2. Will the bullet drop into a fired but not resized case?
3. What is the diameter of your expanding plug?
4. Have you checked the adjustment on your sizing die?
5. Can you push a bullet into the sized case, but not expanded, just by pushing on it with your fingers?
6. Can you push a bullet into the sized and expanded case just by pushing on it with your fingers? This might be a new one, but is related to 1 and 3.
Last edited by garandsrus; 07-23-2018 at 03:38 PM.
Garandsrus,
Thanks for the catch. Yes I meant seating stem, not expander. Sorry for the confusion.
1. They drop out of the beagled mold at .415. I resize them to .410.
2. the bullets will not drop in the case, unless i push them with my finger. Gently. just the spring tension in the mag tube pushes them back in, and its a pretty weak spring.
3. Its .402 and the step where it flares out is .415
4. no.
5. I cant. The bullet does not fit.
6. i might. If i tried hard. Never tried it before.
Kev,
For #6, If you can’t push a bullet in with your fingers with reasonable pressure, the magazine spring shouldn’t be able to either.
How deep do you flair the case to .415? It should be less than 1/8”. Basically just enough to set the bullet on the case. You may be inserting the expander too deeply in the case, losing your neck tension.
With the other measurements and answers you provided, the case tension should be fine for holding the bullet with or without a crimp.
I wouldnt bet the farm on that working ! need to add recoil to the equation also the impact of the column of rounds in the magazine when the cutoff releases one - ther is a distinct kerlunk there - for one reason or another boolits with no crimp groove are a failure more times than they work in tube magazines with smokeless powder -frustrating and dangerous when a case swallows the projectile .
When you expand, the .402 section is your expander (ideally with .410 boolits you'd want a .409 or .408), the 0.415" step is for flaring the case mouth. The boolits should not be able to be pushed in by finger pressure at all after sizing or after expanding.
It is the boolits job to expand the case up from 0.402" (ideally 0.408 or 0.409) to hold the boolit. The 0.415 step is just to open the case neck 1/16" +/- to aid in starting the boolit into the case and to keep from cutting or shaving lead from the boolit. If you were using a soft alloy, your boolit may be swaged or squeezed down from 0.410 to a slightly smaller diameter. That is where a harder alloy or an expander of 0.410, or 0.409 would be a huge benefit.
If you can push boolits into the case after expanding, but not after sizing, and your expander is 0.402 with a 0.415 flare step, something is up and we need to figure it out.
I can't push the bullets in with my fingers. And I barely flare the mouth. They chamber fine. Now my only concern will be accuracy. I should go shooting this weekend hopefully.
Congrats, diagnosing problems with loading ammo is all about breaking it down into steps and determining where the issue is. Kinda like a big puzzle. You have to know what should take place at each step and be able to measure or determine when its not correct. Next time something comes up, you'll be well on your way to figuring it out. Good job.
Might want to consider spending the money to get the right expander for your rifle. You can order it for under $20 with the shipping IIRC.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
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