38 spl "FBI load"

[Larry Gibson]

with 150 - 158 gr bullets 820 - 850 fps was considered "standard" velocity back in the day. Original Winchester and Federal "FBI 150 LSWDHP +Ps were originally 950+ fps from a 4" barrel and just under the SAAMI MAP for pressure.

Bullseye will not get you to true +P velocity and remain at or under SAAMI +P pressure MAP with 150 gr cast bullets. In the 38 SPL with 150 gr cast bullets 5.5 gr Unique will be right under the SAAMI MAP and get you 950 fps out of a 4" barreled revolver and just under 900 out of 2 - 2.5" barreled revolvers.

[FergusonTO35]

Aaahh, I see. So, today's FBI loads are slower than those of the past.

[35remington]

Some are. I have occasionally clocked some lots as fast at 850 or so from shortie (1 7/8) Smiths depending upon brand and lot.

However, the arguable part is whether that specific velocity on the higher end of the range made the FBI load’s fame and fortune from short barrels. Given the inherent variation of velocity due to powder position shifts in the 38 case, and given the high likelihood the powder is bunched up in the front of the case or near it when the gun is drawn for the first shot, it is likely the bullet sails out of short barrels somewhat slower than that.

So, one must ask oneself just what is being duplicated, and under what conditions to attempt to accurately answer the question. A better guess these days is the bullet is going no faster than 800 odd fps from short barrels of Smith persuasion when actually employed.

This is consonant with the factory rating when subtraction from velocity due to the short barrel is factored in, so no real surprise there.

[USSR]

A better guess these days is the bullet is going no faster than 800 odd fps from short barrels of Smith persuasion when actually employed.

Not if you're using the right powder, 35remington, which is what we have been saying. With small amounts of fast powder, yes. With a medium burn rate powder you can match the "original" load velocity of the FBI Load. You should try it.

Don

[Outpost75]

What also must be considered is the effect of cylinder gap. In standard pressure lead bullet .38 Special the normal and expected Delta-V is 10 fps for each 0.001" difference in cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance. A 2" gun set up to minimum specs of pass 0.003"/hold 0.004" will produce higher velocity than a 4" gun having Customer Service Max. cylinder gap of pass 0.008"/hold 0.009". The difference may be greater with +P depending upon the powder used for the particular loading.

It is not unusual to find service guns in the field which have been shot alot with cylinder gaps as large as 0.010"!

[lightload]

I agree with Larry about 5.5 grs Unique and 150 grain cast bullet.

[35remington]

USSR, somehow you missed the part where I was talking about the FBI load, which is in factory form. I spoke of how to duplicate it over the entire range of which it is chronographed from short barrels, which is from 800-850 fps. That covers both new and old iterations.

You also missed the part where I suggested getting the higher velocities and with which powder it could be attained. It is at this point you may wish to reread what I actually posted. Try starting at post 41 and going from there. At no time have I found any lot of factory FBI load exceeding 850 fps, even the rare or old lots, in short 1 7/8 Smith barrels.

Tried it, done it, and got the T shirt.

The quote of mine you printed in post 184 is the way to bet with current or even past factory loads given the practical realities of lot variation and powder position in the 38 case.

[Petrol & Powder]

I wrote this way back in post #67 and I stand by it:

"It has been many years since I tested 158 grain 38 Special loads over a chronograph but I never got anywhere close to 900 fps out of a 2" barrel, even with +P pressures. In a 4" barrel with +P pressures it's easy to get 158 grain bullets to 900 fps.

I'm not going to say that 900 fps with a 158 grain bullet is impossible from a 2" barrel while remaining under 20K psi but I will say that I'm extremely skeptical of those claims."

One of the issues with this somewhat contentious, but civil, thread; is the number of variables we are speaking about.
Barrel length, bullet weight, pressures and as Outpost75 pointed out - even cylinder gap are just some of the factors.

I've looked for my old notebooks and I cannot find them. So this is from memory.

Using 1 7/8" J-frames, 2" K-frames and a few other similar guns with barrels at or under 2.25" ; I never got over 900fps. In fact, I don't recall even getting close to 900fps. In addition to handloads that attempted to duplicate the "FBI Load" with several different powders, I also tested factory cartridges that fit the "FBI Load" parameters.

You must be comparing apples to apples. I think some contention comes from variables unintentionally entering into the discussion. 900+fps is entirely possible within SAAMI specs for 38 +P , IF we are talking about longer barrels or lighter bullets.

However, if we set the parameters at:
A 2" barreled revolver
A lead bullet at 158 grain +/- 1 grain
Maximum pressures at or below 20K psi
Then the results will be velocities less than 900 fps.

[FergusonTO35]

Barrel to cylinder gap can make a huge difference. I have a Rossi 461 with 3" tube, very nice little revolver. It had a yawning .010 gap form the factory and was making less velocity than my S&W 637 with stumpy 1-7/8" barrel. I sent it back to Rossi expecting they would just say it was within spec. To my surprise and delight they actually rebarreled it for me, now has a nice .003.

[Forrest r]

The 1972 (the year the fbi adopted the "158gr lead hp/38spl p+ ammo" The law enforcement handgun digest (of 1972) on page #188 lists:
w38spd ammo (winchester's 158gr lead hp 38spl p+ ammo) velocity/1014fps from a 4" test bbl.


Buffalo bore sells a 38spl 158gr lead hp sd ammo that has no "special" warnings about over pressure that gets +/- 1000fps (20a ammo).
Pearce did his own testing and found not only did the buffalo bore do 1000fps. He was able to duplicate that load while staying in saami specs for max pressure/20,000psi 38spl p+ pressure. Both of the company's listed above either sell the load data or the ammo.

What pearce and bb have in common is the bullet being used itself. That's called a clue.

10 pages later and no one has really touched on what actually works and why. Myself I only use 38spl's & 9mm's for plinking or target work. Never did like or use either caliber for pocket carry/sd. The misses wanted a snubnosed 38spl for cc so I picked 1 up and did a bunch of testing. I do have a little experience with snubnosed revolvers having owned a s&w model 60 (357) in the past and having owned 44spl bulldogs since the 80's.

It's all about the bullet. After you get away from the cylinder gap, cylinder holes, position of the powder, type of powder, etc. The biggest factor is the bullet itself. The 2nd biggest factor is the alloy of the bullet.

[Forrest r]

Some of the bullets I used to test 2" bbl'd 38spl p+ ammo.
[IMG][/IMG]

What winchester used in their w38spd ammo
[IMG][/IMG]

I also tested these 3 hollow based bullets.
[IMG][/IMG]

At the end of the day I tested:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
cramer hunter hpfn 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpgcswc 150gr
Mihec 640 hpfn 158gr
Mihec hbwc turned backwards 148gr
home swaged jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc 158gr
raphine hbfn 150gr

I tested those 10 bullets using 6bhn & 10bhn alloys
I tested the 9 lead bullets with pc and traditional lubes

The ww "fbi" bullet used a soft 6/7bhn swaged hpswc that had a hollow base.
BB & Pearce used a 6bhn "gas checked" hpswc

That's called a clue, namely soft lead and bases that seal extremely well.

[Petrol & Powder]

Again, we are STILL introducing variables.

1014 fps from a 4" test (possibly unvented) barrel is not the same thing as a 2" revolver barrel with a barrel to cylinder gap.

A 2" snubnose 38 Special revolver is no powerhouse (no handgun is) but with the 158 gr, +P LSWCHP, it has a very good track record in the real world. Are there handguns with better track records? Yep ! but that's not what we are talking about.

Forrest r ; you are absolutely correct that it is the bullet that does the work. In the self-defense arena, terminal performance is what we are after. We want a projectile that will reliably stop the fight in the real world.
Handguns in general are poor tools to stop a human attacker but are often the only practical tool available. Because handguns are poor tools to stop humans, we attempt to stack the odds as much as possible in our own favor.

We are looking for a projectile that will reliably penetrate deep enough to reach something important enough to stop the fight. (that's usually a major blood vessel, some part of the central nervous system or big load carrying bones). After reaching that vital structure, we want that projectile to be capable of damaging that structure enough to rapidly incapacitate the attacker. That's a tall order for ANY handgun round in the real world and a very tall order for a snubnose revolver. However, since I can't walk around all day with a 12 gauge pump action shotgun in my hands, a smaller weapon is often the only choice.

IF the criteria is a 2" DA revolver chambered in 38 Special +P, then the only choice left over is, "what TYPE of 38 Special +P cartridge" to put in that 2" snubnose?

Would a .357 Magnum be better? SURE ! but we've already decided that we are talking about 38 Special.
Would a 4" 44 magnum be better? ABSOLUTELY, but that's not what we are talking about either.

[Forrest r]

It the littlest things that make huge changes when it comes to high pressure loads coupled with short bbl's. I used a pretty good mix of bullets to test with. Along with testing with 3 different lubes and 2 different alloys.

The lube didn't have any real affect of the velocities.

The alloy did have an affect on the velocities. The soft 6/7bhn alloy had 10+fps more velocity then the 10bhn alloy. While 10fps isn't much, the softer alloys went hand in hand with the larger/longer bottom drive banded or gc'd bullet bases.

The bullet bases where the "huge" difference maker in velocity. The same 4 bullets kept having the highest velocities regardless of the powders being used. Those bullets were:
cramer #26
mihec hbwc turned backwards
358156 gc bullet
home swaged jacketed bullet.

[IMG][/IMG]

What those 4 bullets have in common is their ability to seal the cylinders/bbl quickly. Either with the large bottom drive bands or with a gc or with the long body of the jacket.

The bullets with multiple small drive bands or large middle drive bands performed the worst. The 2 hb bullets didn't do very well and the mihec 640 did better than the multiple & large middle drive banded bullets. The mihec 640 also did better than the hb bullets but because of it's small base it couldn't keep up with the 4 bullets pictured above.

[Forrest r]

Real world results:

Bullseye powder has been brought up in this thread. I love bullseye powder!!! It's the 1st powder I grabbed to test the 38spl p+ loads. I knew bullseye was worthless when trying to get any real p+ velocity out of a 38spl case. But it's a good choice for showing which bullets have weak bases. So I loaded up test loads with the 10 different bullets listed in the above posts and used 4.4gr of bullseye for the test load.

At the end of the day the 4 bullets pictured above averaged in the +/- 820fps range with that 4.4gr load of bullseye.
The multiple and large middle drive banded bullets were in the +/- 800fps range.
The hb bullets were in the +/- 780fps range.

Same load, same bullet weight (+/-10gr), same alloy, same lube, etc.

2 lead hpswc's cast from the same alloy and pc'd in the same batch at the same time. 4.4gr bullseye
cramer #26 ='s 821fps
358439 ='s 792fps

I've retested this several times. 30fps difference by simply using a different bullet. The h&g #51 with the small base did 784fps. That's 35fps+ difference between the 2 bullets.

Needless to say I've sold the h&g @51 and the lyman 358439 molds.

The lyman 358156 on the other had did the best with the 4.4gr load @ 822fps. I do have 3 different 358156 molds that have 3 different hp pins that range from short to long. The short pins does extremely well and I'll probably end up selling the other 2 off.

Unique has also been mentioned in this thread. I used 5.5gr of uniques to test all 10 bullets with. The top 4 performing bullets were all right at 850fps. The rest were in the 820fps range. Again around 30fps difference with a simple bullet swap.

When I switched to 2400 & power pistol the difference in the bullet designs really showed up. There was 40fps to 50fps difference between the top design/performing bullets and the bullets with hb's, multiple drive bands & large middle drive bands.

Is the cylinder gap important???
Absolutely!!!

Does the alloy affect the fps???
Absolutely!!!

Bullet design is king!!!

WW, pearce,BB all used a soft bullet. ww used a hb bullet & bb/pearce used a gc'd bullet. While the 358156 isn't the same bullet that bb/pearce used, it's a good place to start.

I did all my testing with a 2" bbl'd charter arms undercover that has a 4/1000th's cylinder gap. All bullets are sized to .358".

I carried over what I learned from the snubnosed 38spl p+ loads/bullet designs and did a bunch of testing in different firearms chambered in 357 with bbbl's ranging from 3"/4"/6"/8"/10". The results mirrored the 38spl p+ findings. 50fps really didn't mean much when the bullets are doing 1400fps+. When their doing 950fps compared to 900fps, the +/- 50fps is huge.

[Petrol & Powder]

Forrest r, would it be fair to say that in a 2" revolver with a 158 grain bullet and within SAAMI +P pressure limits regardless of: alloy, coating/lube/jacket, base design or powder - None of the bullets exceeded 900 fps?

[Forrest r]

Why the hb bullets didn't perform well in the 38spl p+ tests:

The simple answer, wrong hb design.

I went thru the same thing with the 429422 hb bullet. The round pin makes the bullets base to thin at the top of the bottom drive band/bottom of the lube groove intersection. When I re-designed the hb pin I picked up 50+fps in a snubnosed 44spl.
[IMG][/IMG]

Did a similar hb pin design for a lyman 35870 hb mold. Accuracy and velocity improved, it's now my 50yd 9mm bullet.
[IMG][/IMG]

The raphine hb mold has an extremely long conical shaped pin. I could get 20fps/30fps more velocity out of that bullet by going to a 14bhn/15bhn bullet.

I need to re-design a hb pin for that lyman 358431 mold. I'd get 50fps more out of it in the snubnosed 38spl if I did.

Whatever testing you do, powder/bullets, it doesn't matter. Find what performs the best bullet/alloy wise. Then change powders.

800fps in a snubnosed (2" bbl) 38spl is a joke. 850fps can be done with most bullet designs. 900fps you need a god bullet design. 950fps you need a good bullet design and a good powder.

Myself, I never wanted a 1000fps/158gr load in the snubnosed 38spl. 950fps was good enough for the fbi and the load/firearm is for the misses after all. So I stopped working up loads/bullets when I hit 950fps (+/-10fps) with any of those 4 main bullets that performed the best in any/all of the 38spl p+ testing.

Now the snubnosed 44spl that I carry, that's another ball game.
The fbi had a hb bullet. BB/pearce had a 1000fps sd load for the snubnosed 38spl revolvers. I have a 1000fps hb swc hp for the snubnosed 44spl revolver.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Forrest r]

Forrest r, would it be fair to say that in a 2" revolver with a 158 grain bullet and within SAAMI +P pressure limits regardless of: alloy, coating/lube/jacket, base design or powder - None of the bullets exceeded 900 fps?

No sir.

I quit @ 950fps. The 358156 and the home swaged jacketed bullets gave me 950fps +/- with 6.2gr of power pistol. Never did get the 1000fps pearce claimed to get. But then again pearce chose extremely well when picking that ruger lcr for his testing.

I can easily see the ruger vs charter arms turning into a 50fps loose in velocity for me/charter arms.

[Forrest r]

Keep in mind that out of 10 different common/popular bullets that casters use/make. Only 1 cast bullet got me to the 950fps range (358156). The cramer #26 was close and the mihec 148gr hbwc turned backwards started to fall off.

The home swaged jacketed bullet did extremely well. But every brass/swaged bullet I've made has always had excellent velocities for the weight/caliber. A 225gr home swaged brass bullet in a standard 1911/5" bbl/45acp with a full house load of power pistol.
[IMG][/IMG]

The home swaged brass jacketed bullets have excellent velocities.
The cast bullets did their best with 6/7bhn alloys in the snubnosed 38spl p+ tests.
The 6/7bhn cast bullets with large/long bottom drive bands outperformed the other cast bullet with multiple/large middle drive bands or the hb bullets.
The 358156 bullet cast with a 6/7bhn alloy and had a gc added was either top dog or within 5fps in everything I tested.

bullseye
american select
unique
be-86
herco
2400
power pistol

While I didn't get the 1000fps that bb/pearce claim to get. 950fps (real fbi load) is impressive. It's what I targeted and after a bunch of test rounds, what I ended up with.

Soft bullet/gc/power pistol/950fps

[Forrest r]

If you don't think I did a bunch of head scratching when I 1st started testing 38spl p+ loads in that snubnosed revolver. You better guess again. Finely said the heck with it (wasn't doing well at all) and dug out every hp/35cal mold I had along with every hb mold and made up a #50 batch of 10bhn alloy.

Did a bunch of casting/coating/testing

Got to thinking about it and re-tested the top performing loads/bullets with a 6/7bhn alloy.

10 bullets 7 powders and a coupe thousand test rounds later, I managed to get the fbi 4" bbl performance out of a 2" bbl'd revolver.

[Petrol & Powder]

No sir.

I quit @ 950fps. The 358156 and the home swaged jacketed bullets gave me 950fps +/- with 6.2gr of power pistol. Never did get the 1000fps pearce claimed to get. But then again pearce chose extremely well when picking that ruger lcr for his testing.

I can easily see the ruger vs charter arms turning into a 50fps loose in velocity for me/charter arms.

From Forrest r's prior post #191:

"At the end of the day I tested:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
cramer hunter hpfn 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpgcswc 150gr
Mihec 640 hpfn 158gr
Mihec hbwc turned backwards 148gr
home swaged jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc 158gr
raphine hbfn 150gr"

the 358156 HP bullet is highlighted in red

So we're not talking about a 158gr bullet but rather a 150 grain bullet. Is that the actual weight of the bullet tested ?