Je suis Charlie
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
Bertrand de Jouvenel
“Any government that does not trust its citizens with firearms is either a tyranny, or planning to become one.” – Joseph P. Martino
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin
Je suis Charlie
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
Bertrand de Jouvenel
“Any government that does not trust its citizens with firearms is either a tyranny, or planning to become one.” – Joseph P. Martino
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin
I have used 2400 in .357 mag, 8mm Mauser, and 30-06 with fine results.
SHiloh
Je suis Charlie
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
Bertrand de Jouvenel
“Any government that does not trust its citizens with firearms is either a tyranny, or planning to become one.” – Joseph P. Martino
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin
Probably beating a dead horse at this point, but 2400 has been around forever, load data abounds in all kinds of things and many of us have used it extensively in many different capacities. If anything this "expert" had to say had any truth to it, the stuff would have been discontinued decades ago.
Phil Sharpe -- strikes again I have a copy of his book and find the talk on period tools a great read. However, I believe he is the guy who started the rumor about .303 Savage rifles being a .331-.312 groove diameter.
Some years ago some guy started an on-line survey regarding this. As I recall, not 1 instance of anything other than .308 nominal was found.
I also think Sharpe started that rumor. (My 1900 Model 99 slugs .309, for what that's worth, so no matter who it was they were wrong.
Also FWIW, some of our modern-day Schuetzen competitors are using 2400 for light loads (1450 fps) in the .32-40 cartridge. Myself I prefer AA #9 or AA 4100. Most of us use PISTOL primers, too. Hotter rifle primers open up the velocity variance. Magnums are never seen except by mistake.
Cognitive Dissident
From what I recall reading in a gun rag (so it has to be true). The article's author claimed mag primers don't burn hotter meaning a higher temperature but burn for a very slightly longer duration. Keep in mind it was one author's opinion and I don't recall the article saying anything about tests or where he derived it from.
I read an article just this morning on how 2400 blew up a Contender in .475 JDJ. Detonation was blamed. Large case (45-70), small charge, heavy boolit (.458), fireforming for the .475.
I knew from years of reading and reloading that mixing 2400 with large cases was not the intelligent thing to do.Pointing the barrel straight down while releasing the hammer I turned to answer. I then raised my Contender and just knew that this time I was going to bust the pigeon.http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htmPulling the trigger my Contender exploded. Reeling and dazed by the violent explosion, I just stood there stupidly looking at what was left.
Read the article and make of what you will.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Anybody’s loading data is certainly of interest and value, but should be combined with one’s own experience and the factory recommendations and loading manual starting and maximum loads. Elmer Keith’s comments on the tactics of such approaches have always stuck with me, and have been very valuable.
I have a copy of the first edition of Robert’s and Water’s The Breech-Loading Single-Shot Match Rifle. All over in the “Loadings” chapter are pencilled-in comments. Two, typical of all the rest, are, “ALL OF THESE LOADS ARE TOO D—N HOT!!” and “DO NOT USE BULK SHOTGUN POWDER IN RIFLE CASES!! GET RID OF SHOTGUN BULK!!” And I have to say, the previous owner was not wrong, although judicious downward adjustments, of what were, no doubt, Robert’s maximum loads which worked well in his rifles, produced at least acceptable results, with moderate pressures.
Sharpe was in at the beginning for powders like 2400 and 3031, and his load recommendations are a mix of factory recommendations and the findings he got in his own ballistic lab, with the cases and primers available at the time. He also cites other individuals as sources. In a lot of cases, he gives the crusher-gauge pressures of the loads. I myself would not use any of these loads as a starting point, any more than I would use Internet advice on loads from unknown individuals, except as an idea of what is possible and a level to sneak up to gradually.
It is interesting that the notations for 2400 were pencilled in around the .22 Hornet section. The Hornet was the first cartridge I reloaded for, and, like many a beginning handloader, I was determined to get .220 Swift ballistics, at least, out of it, by one way or another. Maximum 2400 loads worked very well for several reloadings, and then primers falling out and other signs of overpressure showed up. I could have blamed the powder, of course, as a nascent handloading expert, but, being a print junkie, I continued reading about others’ handloading experiences. Some more of this background research indicated that max loadings tended to lengthen this case into the leade of the chamber, gripping the bullet and raising pressures. Trimming the cases back allowed the max 2400 loadings to continue, until the thinned and worn out brass finally failed somewhere else. I’ve never had any other trouble with recommended 2400 loads. I have never blown out a case using a bullet, though. Cream of Wheat for that application.
I thought it was Townsend Whelen who first said the .303 Savage was an actual .303 caliber with a .311” groove diameter. And I remember that epic “discussion” of what it actually was on the 24Hr Campfire site. Thirty-five pages of bitter invective, name-calling, ancestry aspersions (none flattering), and contumely, over a difference of three one-thousandths of an inch! I loved every line of it, and tried to register so I could inject a post reading “Jerr-ry, Jerr-ry, Jerr-ry” in there, but I couldn’t get the password they sent me to work.
This thread brings some good things to light.
Bent Ramrod has a well written post.
OT - 303guy, each time I read one of your posts and I see the footer about your son, it gives me pause. I have two kids. I don't know you but I think about it...
Chill Wills
2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
~~ WWG1WGA ~~
Restore the Republic!!!
For the Fudds > "Those who appease a tiger, do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last." -Winston Churchill.
President Reagan tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MwPgPK7WQ
Phil Robertson explains the Wall: https://youtu.be/f9d1Wof7S4o
This reminds me of an article in "The NRA Gunsmithing Guide Updated" by the armorer to a US military pistol team. Somebody in that situation has to be good - at gunsmithing or a pistol team. His advice came close to advising the amateur to do no gunsmithing whatsoever, which seems odd in that context. He also said it was important to be able to recognise the various powders by their appearance, although I should have thought advice on how to avoid that necessity would have been more useful.
A person can have a most elevated ability and understanding in all aspects of shooting, while knowing next to nothing about gunsmithing. Also the reverse.
I shot a lot of 2400 in 357 & 44 mag with powder sitting around for years never had a problem.
As with so many other comments, we still have 30 year old 2400 and it is performs perfectly. Shot shot thousands of .357 Magnums with cast lead alloy bullets and have not had issues. We do use Small Pistol Magnum primers. One reason we like this load is that the fired cases can be removed for the cylinder with a slight push of the ejector. A large amount of loading data has been published about listing 16 grains as a universal charge in the .30 Caliber rifle loads too.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |