.38-40 or .40-38

[hydraulic]

How come all the blackpowder cartridge designations list the calibre first and number of grains of black powder second except the .38-40? (.45-70, .44-40, .25-20, etc.). My Colt single action .38-40 takes a .401 bullet and the case holds 35 grs. of 2F. I suspect that the old balloon head cases could hold 38 grs. Shouldn't it be a .40-38? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Mike Venturino]

Winchester introduced the cartridge circa 1879 but never labeled it the .38-40. On all their rifles/carbines it was .38 WCF. Marlin started the .38-40 name because they weren't about to stick their chief competitor's "WCF" on their lever guns.

As for Colt, up to 1941 they too labeled their sixguns .38 WCF. Only with the 3rd Generation guns did the .38-40 make it onto their barrels.

[EDK]

You're too modest. I recommend he buys a copy of your SHOOTING COLT SINGLE ACTIONS book. There's a lot of interesting information in it. IIRC Skeeter Skelton did an article in SHOOTING TIMES, 'way back when, about putting a 38/40 cylinder in a 41 Colt marked SAA....and you did an excellent explanation of that.

Anyone with an interest in the Old West ought to have copies of all four of Mike's books. I'm not much into the SAA, but my "using copies" of LEVERGUNS and BUFFALO RIFLES show their use as references.

[NickSS]

I agree I find Mike's books invaluable additions to my library. I always wondered why winchester called the 38 WCF that and not the 40WCF which is a much more accurate nomenclature.

[missionary5155]

Interesting how over the years POINT of REFRENCE changes... Bore size becomes groove size... It has the same aplication to real life. Values change.. Motives change..
The decision was made during my younger years to toss out the BIBLE... get the new books in. And today you will vote ( I did 6 weeks ago) Whether the Bible or "some other books" influence the next president.

[w30wcf]

hydraulic,

Perhaps the reason Winchester didn't call it the .40 W.C.F. was because they felt that it may be too easily be confused with the .44 W.C.F., which by the way, is really much closer to .43.

Regarding the powder charge, the .38 W.C.F. was originally loaded with 40 grs. of b.p. but, by the early 1890's, the powder charge had been reduced to 38 grs.

U.M.C. / Marlin's .38-40 was always loaded with 40 grs. of b.p. according to the resources I have.

In my experience, dissected .38-40 factory b.p. cartridges have about .20" of powder compression. In addition, the solid head button pocket cases of balloon head construction hold about 2 grs. more of b.p. than modern brass.

w30wcf

[KCSO]

In a ballon head case you MIGHT squeeze 40 grains of powder in. I have only torn down aboout 4 original 38-40's and 3 of those were WTCC ond one UMC. Thhey averaged 36 grains of powder and the powder granulation would have been just under modern 2F size. With the bullets re lubed thye averaged1270 FPS over the Chrony. I will add that one case seperated right at the base. I would never shoot baloon head cases even with black powder as if they let go MOST of the gas will come back right in your face. Luckily I was using an original 73 and had it strapped too a tire for the testing.

As to what a cartridge was originaly loaded with... Cartridges are and have always been loaded to VELOCITY standards according to Edward Matunas. 40 grains weight of powder might have been the standard with the original lot of ammo but after that batch of powder was gone they put in powder enough to meet the velocity standard for that cartridge. The easy test of this is to pull apart military 45-70 from different lots. Powder varies from 67 to 71 grains (as best as could be scraped from the case) but velocity is always in the same area. Most factories used a ballistic pendulem prior to the development of the chronograph. In use a pendelum is very accurate and velocity and energy could be calculated to surprisingly exact standards.

[hydraulic]

No sense in buying Mike's book, "Shooting Colt Single Actions", since I still have the copy I bought the first year they came out.