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Thread: The Wonder Nine Years

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I am wondering how the original GI slides vs. the post WWII replacement "hard slides" compared. Any experience there.
    As you probably know, the WWII slides were only spot-hardened. With extensive firing, they would crack right where they weren't hardened. You could also just about watch these slides 'peen' as you fired the gun. The post-war slides were much better, but still a bit soft for use on a match pistol, for instance. The USGI National Match slides were quite hard, and I can't recall ever seeing a cracked one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRD View Post
    Great post Fred. That's some firsthand experience.
    Any chance though that you could have misremembered the name and actually are thinking of Joe Norman, the S&W engineer, generally credited with Models 39, 59, & 52 design?

    Jason
    It's possible, since it was 39 years ago, but I'm pretty sure his name was Foster. Henry Perez, of Cheshire & Perez, brought him and helped a little the first day. Cheshire & Perez was the S&W distributor for Calif. at the time, when there was only one distributor per state under Bangor Punta management. I just wish I had pumped him for more information at the time, but we were pretty busy converting Model 59's. I ended up doing the conversion on about 500 of them before I was done. After I finished with the department guns, then I started on the privately purchased ones. I'll tell you that firing 3 magazines of 5 rounds each, through each gun takes the fun out of shooting after awhile.......

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    I think the U.S. military's adoption of the Beretta M9 was a factor in the Wonder Nine era but not the sole factor.
    One mustn't discount Mel Gibson and John Woo.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    One mustn't discount Mel Gibson and John Woo.
    I know there is some jest in that but there is some reality as well.

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    This has been a great thread and I want to thank everyone for contributing.

    The Wonder Nine era didn't last long in terms of the history of firearms but it was interesting. I think the actual guns were not as important as the development taking place in that short time span. As for the 9mm Luger cartridge, it has its shortcomings, all cartridges do, but I admire it for what it accomplishes rather than disparage it for what it fails to accomplish. It has been with us since 1902 and there's no denying its worldwide acceptance. It seems to be back in favor here in the U.S.

    If members have additional comments on the Wonder Nine era, please share them. I'm interested in hearing what others have to contribute.

  6. #66
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The thing I find most intriguing about the 9mm is it's ability to generate good velocity from short barrels. The large variety of short barreled 9mm pistols designed for concealed carry make great use of this feature of the cartridge.
    Ballistics by the inch shows 115 and 124 grain bullets getting over 1000fps from a 3 inch barrel. This is outstanding performance. The speed is up there enough to get expansion from well designed hollow points.
    Combine that with well made pistols, and you have a great self defense system.
    This all became available during the developments of the "wonder nine" era.
    Great ammunition and great guns. What more could you ask for.

  7. #67
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    The gun development in and of itself was crazy, but then to look at the amount of new cartridges developed during the time was impressive as well. We've touched a little on it, but not even opened the can yet!
    The 10mm, 40S&W, .41 Jericho, .41AE and hopefully others will remember the ones I'm forgetting! There was a period where I'd go to a gun show and see a gun chambered for a new cartridge and I'd have to wait a month for the new magazines to come out to even know what the heck it was! Most were a copy of anothe revolver round designed for an autoloader. 10mm was supposed to be high end .357mag/low end .41mag. .41AE was supposed to be a full on .41mag. Not really sure what the .41 Jericho was supposed to replicate? Then the .40 we've already covered. But it seems like either ammo was coming out with no guns to shoot it in or guns chambered in ammo that wasn't even produced! I mentioned the 9mm/.41 Jericho convertible, I want to say it came with two boxes of each type of ammo. I can't honestly recall ever seeing another box of .41 Jericho ammo again!
    So while the guns, as impressive as they were, the ammo development was even more so! We went from the Fedral 9BP, a decent round, to hydrashoks, starfires, black talons, the glasser safety slugs, I even read of some hollow ring rounds that were deemed too lethal for even military use! It was amazing the development that was made in a very short time frame as well as the means, and ways to test them. They went from using pork to balistics gel to be able to study the wound cavity and see how different clothes affected terminal balistics then develop even better ammo from that research.
    It was a great time to be a gun nut, I just wish I'd had more money back then!

  8. #68
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    Very interesting thread.Thanks for posting.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawinredneck View Post
    \ We've touched a little on it, but not even opened the can yet!
    The 10mm, 40S&W, .41 Jericho, .41AE and hopefully others will remember the ones I'm forgetting!
    Maybe the 9x21, 9x23, .356 TSW, 9mmAE, 9x25 Dillon or the 357SIG. A few that I remember, I am sure there were more.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master sawinredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corbinace View Post
    Maybe the 9x21, 9x23, .356 TSW, 9mmAE, 9x25 Dillon or the 357SIG. A few that I remember, I am sure there were more.
    I also happened on the 9mmAE.

  11. #71
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    Don't forget the .400 Cor-Bon. That one died pretty quickly.
    Service members, veterans and those concerned about their mental health can call the Veterans Crisis Line to speak to trained professionals. To talk to someone, call 1-800-273-8255 and Press 1, send a text message to 838255 or chat at VeteransCrisisLine.net/Chat.

    If you or someone you know might be at risk of suicide, there is help. Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255, text a crisis counselor at 741741 or visit suicidepreventionlifeline.org.

  12. #72
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    I recall the .41AE cartridge but I don't remember a 41 Jericho cartridge. I do recall the Jericho pistol.

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    The ammo side of the discussion - especially on a handloading forum - is worth expanding on.

    Perhaps the most sensationalist and lasting impact of the Wondernine era arose from the dabbling in lightweight, high velocity, rapid expansion 9mm hollowpoints that failed to reliably stop threats due to lack of adequate penetration.

    It's a fairly interesting thing to look at in retrospect because a great many people and agencies blamed the cartridge rather than the bullet, which is doubly interesting because the essentially same diameter .38 revolvers with heavier slugs weren't having that particular problem. Rather than immediately solving the problem with a different bullet or just sticking with the older .45's and .38/.357's, many millions of dollars and gallons of ink were expended on developing different rounds that we ultimately really did not need. The 10mm was simply too much of a good thing for the average shooter of any era, and certainly for the carry-gun technology of the late 1980's. By the time the .40 came along, the 9mm bullet problems had been fixed, but the cash-strapped gun industry managed to ride the 9mm's "non-stopper" stigma past the point that it was relevant in order to convince civilian and LE consumers alike that it needed not new ammo, but new pistols that had serious wear & tear teething problems and continue to bring issues to parties of recoil-sensitive shooters. There's a reason I call it the ".40 Swindle and Whitewash". The .357 Sig and other "hyper nines" lost most of their relevance when bullets started to be engineered to perform to the FBI's penetration requirements within specific velocity bands. They work on the street, but not significantly better than the cheaper to feed, easier to shoot, easier on the gun 9mms with the right slug.

    All of this because someone thought marketing light, fast bullets that pancake on impact without seriously testing them first was a good idea. What would we call this? Hysterical innovation? We ultimately got some pretty good ammo out of the deal, but the path was anything but a straight one.

    Even funnier - which will be appreciated here - was that Keith wrote of some of his readers using the hollowpointed version of his 358429 (about 160 grains to about 900-950 fps) in the 9mm in Sixguns, which was published in 1955. This duplicated the much vaunted .38 158 grain "FBI Load" OVER THREE DECADES before any of this went down - - possibly even before the "FBI load" was an accepted thing.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  14. #74
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholst55 View Post
    As you probably know, the WWII slides were only spot-hardened. With extensive firing, they would crack right where they weren't hardened. You could also just about watch these slides 'peen' as you fired the gun. The post-war slides were much better, but still a bit soft for use on a match pistol, for instance. The USGI National Match slides were quite hard, and I can't recall ever seeing a cracked one.
    It is my understanding that prior and during WWII, Colt could not hardened the entire slide without warping it. They hardened the front of the slide, the slide stop and put a hardened bushing in the breech face. This bushing was put in before final milling of the breech so it really isn't visible. The barrel lug recesses in the slides really took a beating as they here not hardened.

    Toward the end of WWII, Remington-Rand and Ithaca came up with a way to harden the entire slide, but was never used in production. At the end of the war production of the 1911A1 ended and Colt continued to use left over parts for commercial production until 1947 or so. At that time, the began to harden the slides.

    Around 1951, the Govt. let a contact for replacement slides to Colt and an Israeli firm. These were full hardened and bore the drawing number 7790314 on the left side of the slide. These slides were used for National Match pistols as well.

    This is of interest to me as recently I acquired a primo Colt "hard slide" with all the internals. It is the same slide that Colt used on their commercial handguns of that time, but without the polish and blue. These slides still have some machine markings and are parkerized.

    I mated this slide with a 1995 production Colt lower. It was amazing that parts made this far apart just assembled without fitting. I also used an early 2000 Colt barrel. It makes for a tight fitting accurate handgun. Of course I had to remove the Series 80 levers from the frame and install a spacer.

    Anyway, I expect this pistol to last my lifetime and was curious is anyone who rebuilt these pistols in the military had and information about these replacement slides and how they worked out.

    Many folks don't realize how limited in life the various USGI slides are. With a batch more due out through the OCDM shortly, it behooves a modern generation to understand these pistols, and their limitations.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 07-12-2017 at 10:51 AM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    It's possible, since it was 39 years ago, but I'm pretty sure his name was Foster. Henry Perez, of Cheshire & Perez, brought him and helped a little the first day. Cheshire & Perez was the S&W distributor for Calif. at the time, when there was only one distributor per state under Bangor Punta management. I just wish I had pumped him for more information at the time, but we were pretty busy converting Model 59's. I ended up doing the conversion on about 500 of them before I was done. After I finished with the department guns, then I started on the privately purchased ones. I'll tell you that firing 3 magazines of 5 rounds each, through each gun takes the fun out of shooting after awhile.......

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    Fred,
    It's entirely possible that there was a Joe Foster as well as a Joe Norman. Joe Norman got his name on the patents and in the history books as credited with the the first generation S&W pistol designs, but there was likely a big staff of engineers and technicians in Springfield.

    You are right about having to shoot a large number of shots for work. I've been in that position a few times myself. Shooting goes from fun to drudgery at that point.

    Jason

  16. #76
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I have an old memory of a study done by NYPD a couple of decades back. They looked over the records of every police shooting since Teddy Roosevelt was Commissioner. The perps were shot with everything from a 22 Short to a 458 Win. Mag.

    The bottom line of the study was where you hit them was far more important than what you hit them with. If the "caliber wars" are not over, it is time they should be. Stay calm and shoot straight!

    SOP9 links:

    http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...eport_2013.pdf

    https://firearmusernetwork.com/2012/...effectiveness/

    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
    The ENEMY is listening.
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    Some of the 115-125 gr 9mm jacketed hollowpoints, particularly the Winchester +P+ controlled expansion loads and the Federal 9BPLE loads performed extremely well. It took a little time to get details worked out concerning jacket thickness, shape & size of the hollow point cavity and velocity. After that development and learning curve, those rounds worked very well. Unfortunately, a lot of users (and non-user haters) just lumped all 9mm loads together and said - this doesn't work. There was no interest in getting the facts right and EVERY perceived failure of a 9mm to stop a threat was attributed to ALL 9mm loads.

    Those that say the 45 ACP and .357 mag already worked and implied there was no need to develop the 9mm are correct but that wasn't a useful argument. They seemed to view the 9mm as a threat to the existing cartridges as opposed to the fact that the 9mm could be (and is) an addition to those cartridges. There are a lot tools in the toolbox.

    The FBI didn't help the situation when they created test criteria that almost guaranteed the 9mm wouldn't pass.

    Cartridge and caliber wars are pointless. I'm all about stacking the deck in my favor but honestly; there are other factors just as important, maybe more so, that the cartridge.

  18. #78
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    Outpost, that's very useful information and thank you for providing those links. I've read most of those reports before and I'd like to comment on the "bunch shooting" phenomenon.


    The fact that when multiple officers engage in a shooting they tend to fire a higher number of rounds per officer is often attributed to emotion and the "contagious" effect of the shooting. I believe there's another powerful factor involved that is often overlooked. A lone officer will shoot until he feels the threat is eliminated. An officer that is shooting in defense of another officer (or perceives he is shooting in defense of another officer) will not risk failure to stop the threat. He will shoot more in defense of his fellow officer than even in defense of himself. The possibility of dying or being wounded is strong motivation to use deadly force but the possibility of allowing your brother or sister officer to be harmed by your lack of effort is unbearable. No one wants to see their comrades killed because they held back a little.

    Shootings involving multiple officers does tend to increase the average numbers of shots fired per officer. There may be a lot more to that anomaly than the introduction of semi-auto pistols.

  19. #79
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Outpost, that's very useful information and thank you for providing those links. I've read most of those reports before and I'd like to comment on the "bunch shooting" phenomenon.


    The fact that when multiple officers engage in a shooting they tend to fire a higher number of rounds per officer is often attributed to emotion and the "contagious" effect of the shooting. I believe there's another powerful factor involved that is often overlooked. A lone officer will shoot until he feels the threat is eliminated. An officer that is shooting in defense of another officer (or perceives he is shooting in defense of another officer) will not risk failure to stop the threat. He will shoot more in defense of his fellow officer than even in defense of himself. The possibility of dying or being wounded is strong motivation to use deadly force but the possibility of allowing your brother or sister officer to be harmed by your lack of effort is unbearable. No one wants to see their comrades killed because they held back a little.

    Shootings involving multiple officers does tend to increase the average numbers of shots fired per officer. There may be a lot more to that anomaly than the introduction of semi-auto pistols.
    Interesting. I had never heard that put quite that way. It would explain some things.

  20. #80
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    And during the "Wonder nine" years let us not forget, for those who remember, S&Ws contribution with their "gun of the month club".......

    Larry Gibson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check