Problems with .45acp reloading

[Tumtatty]

I need some help with my .45 reloading setup...

I have a Lee Turret Press and the Lee .45acp dies. I'm using a Springfield .45 mil-spec.

I am having trouble setting the seating depth consistently with my dies. I tried to set the seating depth to 1.270 (the max is 1.275). My reloads ranged from 1.265 to 1.276! with no adjusting of the seating nob!! I cleaned out the seating die, it had some goop in there but the results didn't really improve.

My questions:
1-is this normal? should I be worried?
2-Is it best to set as close to the max as possible or do i just try different lengths and find the longest (under the max) that will feed properly?
3-Do I really need to use the crimp die that came with the set? What's it for? How can I see how much crimp its applying.
4-I've heard that resizing, turning 1/2 and resizing again is worthwhile, is that true, How about with the seating process?

Thanks!

[hylander]

1-is this normal? should I be worried?

Unless your measuring from the Ogive, the OCL will very.

2-Is it best to set as close to the max as possible or do i just try different lengths and find the longest (under the max) that will feed properly?

Seat to Factory specs for the bullet you are using not the Max OCL.

3-Do I really need to use the crimp die that came with the set? What's it for? How can I see how much crimp its applying.

Yes use the FCD, seat with the seating Die only, then Crimp with the FCD.
You will need to use your Calipers to measure how much crimp you are appling.

4-I've heard that resizing, turning 1/2 and resizing again is worthwhile, is that true, How about with the seating process?

Not nessasary for the .45

[HeavyMetal]

Years ago I had a problem with a set of Lee dies in 45 colt, even with case's trimmed to the same length I was getting some issues.

Found out a bit later that the seating area in the dies was about .451 diameter. I was loading for an older Colt SAA that liked boolits in the .454 range. Come to find out the boolits never hit the seating stem! They were catching on the "tight" area in the die, and because the alloy would compress differently with each boolit seated, I was getting C.O.L. of different length's!

Suggest you take your seatiing die apart and try to drop one of your boolit's through it!

If it doesn't pass through and come out the top end I think you will have found your problem.

You also did not mention the type or diameter of the boolit your seating. Be aware that it may be to big in diameter, just something to check.

As far as crimping is concerned? First you want just enough "flare" on the case mouth to start you boolits without shaving lead off when seated. Then, when you hit the crimp die, slowly adujst the crimp until you can't feel or measure it! You just want to straighten the case no more! If your boolit is not a "mild" press fit in the case a crimp won't help squat!

All of the above takes place with cases that are all the same length! Trust me on this : if your cases are all over the place so shall your crimp be! Both in location and how much you've applied!

All your trying to do is remove "projections" on the case to prevent stoppages!

To many people think they need to "crimp" like there sealing a bottle of wine!

Not with smokeless powder!

[DLCTEX]

What are the boolits lubed with? I have had seating problems using LLA becuse I was applying too much lube. Thinning the LLA with mineral spirits helped. Heavy Metal gave sound advice on the rest. DALE

[Tumtatty]

I"m using the Lee 452-230-2r sized to .452 with Allox and JPW.

I will try dropping a boolit through the die and see if it falls through.

Also was wondering...perhaps my oal could have been impacted by primer seating depth. I noticed that several my rounds had very slight protrusion. I need to make sure they are all seated properly. I was not measuring from the ogive. I need to get a special rig for that don't i?


Thanks guys!

[MtGun44]

Measureing from the ogive is fine for target rifles and jacketed bullets,
but a bit much for .45 acp with cast. Won't hurt but it is like measuring
firewood with a micrometer, IMHO.

I think you found your own problem with primer protusion variability. This
will also cause misfires that are hard to diagnose because they will fire
fine on the second try, look like a weak firing pin hit after the first try because
the primer is being fully seated by the firing pin blow. Even if they go off,
you will have accuracy reduction due to inconsistent primer power and
often late ignition which acts like slow lock time.

Keeping the die clean and using a "reasonable fit" seater plug shape are
also important. You want a round nosed seater plug for best results with
RN boolits - not that flat won't work, but will tend to flatten the nose a bit
and could be part of the inconsistency.

Make sure you do a moderate taper crimp or light roll crimp or you
will have reliability issues (feeding) in most 1911s. The flared mouth needs
to be turned into the lead about half the thickness of the brass or you
will get roof jams and failures to close. Taper crimping with a separate die
is the most satisfactory, but like most things in reloading, not the only thing
that will work.

I've been loading .45 ACP in large quantity since 1980 and have helped a lot
of our IPSC club members to fix their ammo problems that they thought were
gun problems. Lack of taper crimp has been the most common flaw with
newbie loaded ammo in 1911s.

Bill

[nicholst55]

Make sure you do a moderate taper crimp or light roll crimp or you will have reliability issues (feeding) in most 1911s. Lack of taper crimp has been the most common flaw with newbie loaded ammo in 1911s.

Bill

+1. I once bought a large quantity of .45 ACP ammo from a commercial reloader to tear down for components. He claimed they just would NOT function in any gun they'd been tried in; since he was a self-proclaimed genius, the bullets (not his own brand) just had to be defective.

Before I agreed to buy this "junk" ammo for a ridiculously low price, I made a few inquiries into his reloading setup; no taper crimp die in use. I took this ammo home and ran it through my RCBS taper crimp die - this is back when you had to buy them separate - they weren't part of the regular die set. That ammo functioned flawlessly in my guns, and I bought it for slightly more than the cost of brass!

[bobk]

I don't want to start a war here on case length. I did that once before, don't remember on what forum. However, to kick off the controversy, the oft -repeated info that the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth just ain't so. During the last discussion I entered into on this subject, I tore down a few .45s and measured the headspace with a depth mike, and I measured a bunch of cases. The results were that I had at least one barrel that that measured .920, counting the slide-to-barrel-hood gap. None of my cases measured the nominal .898, the closest was .893. Some were shorter, and well-used cases were shorter yet. The case NEVER needs trimming, as they get shorter each time you size them. What's a feller to do?

What I do is seat the boolits into the rifling. I dismantle the gun. Putting the barrel and bushing back into the slide. Then I try the completed rounds in the slide assy, and set the depth so that a .005 is a go, and a .009 is a nogo. Then I back off the seating stem, and set the ROLL crimp. Once I have enough crimp to prevent setback during feeding, I screw the seating stem back onto the boolit. Then I recheck subsequent rounds to ensure that my OAL is where I want it.

All this may seem like a lot of work, but the rounds feed and shoot well. I used boolits that measured up to .453 (Speer 200 SWC).

Take your pistols apart and do some measuring. The results may surprise you. The one person who disagreed with me told me that my assertion that it was the extractor was providing "headspace" control was an old wives' tale. I checked this, and in my one barrel, the case rim did contact the rim before the mouth of the case contacted the barrel. Now, I did some swapping around of barrels and slides, and did find a combination that gave an on-spec headspace measurement. So what?

I would be real worried about high primers in a semiauto, though. I don't know that they would slamfire, but I ain't gonna be the one to test this! I do clean my primer pockets every time, every round. If you tell me it's not really necessary, I won't dispute you, but I'm going to continue doing it.
Bob K

[Echo]

+1 for headspacing on the boolit. I seat mine out about .040-.050 and figure they will engrave lightly when slammed into battery. And TAPER CRIMP!
(I doubt very seriously if anyone will ever find a 45ACP case as long as the chamber)

[35remington]

Given that the case would have to be about 0.040" short to contact the extractor before the case headspaced on its mouth (or the bullet), bobK's gun must have had some really poor tolerances to headspace on the extractor before the cartridge headspaced on its mouth.

In most instances, the 1911 headspaces its cases on the case mouth or the bullet long before it headspaces on the extractor. Headspacing on the extractor is fortunately not common.

This has been common knowledge for some time now, and has been put forth in circulation with peer group review. It is not refuted; extractor headspacing is quite rare.

Headspacing on the extractor is so undesirable (leading to possible poor ignition, misfires, and poor accuracy) that if your 1911 is indeed somehow headspacing on the extractor it needs to be addressed and corrected.

[HeavyMetal]

Were kind of getting off track of the thread here BUT case length, or lack thereof, does indeed play a role in feeding for auto pistols.

I have several 45 auto's and have worked with a bunch more. Until recently the chambers were cut along the lines of .900 to .920 deep. I always seated my boolits out to contact the"leade" of the rifling to give a more consistant head space. It does vary from pistol to pistol particularly in the old surplus Colt contract guns.

Enter 2008! Hadn't messed with a 45 build in several years and the BIL approched me with a Para frame he had purchased pre ban and, as he finally had some extra cash, could I put a pistol together for him?

I ordered a Bar sto barrel right off! Last time I order one I waited a whole 3 weeks this time it was like 5 months! So I also ordered a plain cheapee barrel from Sarco for $35.00!

This barrel was never intended to be a match barrel but was to act as a fitting tool.

On the first range trip the barrel shot fair( it is not a Bar Sto) but I got a unforgivable amount of stoppages! These were all failure to go into battery! To long a cartridge I thought.

Examined the ammo at home and it was what I had been loading for all the other 45's and it had been working well, still does as a matter of fact!

I pulled the barrel and dropped in a case trimmed to .893 and it was actually a hair to long and stood up above the barrel hood about .005!

With the boolits seated out it was no wonder I had failures to go into battery! With the ammo adjusted as needed the rest of the test firing went off with out a hitch, or a jam!

The final "nail" in this story is that the Bar Sto barrel showed up with almost the identical chamber length!

Apparently someone has decided to update the way they cut chambers and do away with the sloppy head space that has "plaged" 45 auto barrels for years.

I don't know if other manufacturers are doing the same thing but it is something to check out if your buying a new pistol or a replacement barrel!

[35remington]

If a case within or shorter than SAAMI spec (which .893" is within) stands up .005" above the barrel hood, your chamber has insufficient headspace.

No other way to say it. Hope you like trimming your cases. Either that, or get the chamber reamed to the proper depth.

Left as is, some factory ammo will not chamber. Not good.

[bobk]

35remington,
Headspacing on the extractor does not lead to misfires. If anything, it is chambering so long that the case mouth doesn't come near the chamber end that it might cause misfiring. However, I doubt it. Never had a misfire with the gun in question, a Colt Combat Commander. Indeed, if you take a case and chamber it in the disassembled slide-barrel assy., and depress the firing pin from the end, the firing pin contacts the primer (dud one) long before it bottoms in the slide.

I suspect that the reason the extractor retention situation is viewed as rare is because it seldom causes any problem when using new ammunition or ammunition with clean primer pockets, because the primers are fully seated, not high through misseating or because of priming residue in the primer pocket. If there is no reason to suspect a problem, these "loose" guns keep clanking along, giving no evidence of any problem. My Commander did that, for thousands of rounds. The only reason that I became aware of the situation was because I read about headspace control being an aid to accuracy. That may be an old wives' tale, too, as I never saw any comparative groups that showed a clear superiority of properly headspaced rounds. I'm inclined to suspect that it doesn't mean a thing.

It may be a case of trying to blame the hardware for what is essentially sloppy reloading practices.

Bob K

[35remington]

It's true that the gun may go bang if the case if sufficiently "wedged" in the chamber, and the case is not so short that it turns excessively upon being struck by the firing pin blow and misaligns the cartridge. These are the instances when extractor headspacing are undesirable.

In most cases, you probably wouldn't know, because in those rare cases where the case rim actually does make contact with the extractor first, the chamber shoulder is most likely only a few thousandths away.....or the bullet is nearly in contact with the leade. The firing pin blow is therefore "backstopped" and secondarily supported by either the chamber shoulder or the bullet making contact with the rifling.

However, it is most correct to state that extractor headspacing is rare and not a common occurrence. In the vast majority of cases the round is headspaced by the case mouth or by the bullet, not the extractor.

On edit: I apologize for any semi-hijack. Back to topic now.

[bobk]

35remington,
Or the new barrels are exactly minimum headspace. I've never measured a barrel hood to slide fit that was as low as .005, else I would be unable to take a .009 feeler and check the gap from case head to slide. One thing to note, however: those "loose" guns always functioned, and that is the purpose of a defensive handgun. It's just like bushing fit. Years ago I fit two bushings to Colts, absolute minimum. Never saw a difference in accuracy. Same with slide to frame. Both sights are on the slide, so why would there be an effect on accuracy if there was some clearance. I did come up with a way to tighten that, and maintain good function. I peened the back of the slide in the area of the rails, so that clearance was the same while the slide was out of battery, but locked up solid when the slide went home. Neat, low-buck trick, but once again I never saw any measurable increase in accuracy.

IMO, none of this stuff makes any practical difference. In actual usage, the ability to hit your target is influence by accuracy, trajectory, and wind drift. In other words, if you cut the group size in half, the other factors may well prevent you from obtaining any increase in hits. Reducing reliability to obtain better groups is a step backwards. Better to look to improving sighting so that you can make use of the accuracy that the gun has. I'd bet that from a rest, I can put most of my rounds in a mansized target at 200 yards. I've done it with short-barreled revolvers. Most of our guns shoot more accurately than we know, because we never tried them to see what is possible.

BTW, heavyMetal's problem with functioning was due to long seated boolits, so trimming his cases won't help him at all.

Bob K

[bobk]

35remington,
I don't know that anyone has measured the "vast majority of cases" to truthfully say what the headspace dimensions are of some signifigant number of guns. Is there a study, or is this anecdotal?

Bob K

[35remington]

Actually, HeavyMetal's problem is with a too short chamber, not with bullet involved as you state. Reread his post- he dropped a 0.893" case only into the chamber and discovered it was .005" over flush with the hood. Even given breechface-hood slack, that's too short for proper fitting. Especially with a case .005" under SAAMI maximum.

It needs to have the chamber deepened. I wouldn't cherish the thought of trimming my hoard of ACP brass just because someone made the chamber too short. That's too much work and is not needed. Less work to make the chamber right.

BobK, you may verify that case mouth or bullet headspacing is most commonly found in 1911's the same way that I did - consult one who is more experienced. Handloader magazine also asserted this.

I may put you in contact with the Gunsmithing moderator of thehighroad or m1911.org, an old North Carolina gunsmith. He will confirm that case mouth or bullet headspacing is the norm. PM me if you wish to verify for yourself.

Very few gunsmiths or 1911 builders will assert that the 1911 normally headspaces on the extractor. Abnormally, yes. Normally, no. It is not the norm.

[bobk]

35remington,
I reread heavyMetal's post, and his readjustment of the rounds I took to mean that he seated the boolits in the offending ammo more deeply, and functioning became normal. Lengthening his chamber to the old, longer spec would make life easier for him, since it would match his other older barrels, but then it would not be "in spec", like the other, newer barrels are.

Oh, the situation of headspacing on the extractor is abnormal, to be sure, but what I would be interested in is seeing a study where pistols had actually been examined and measured, not just another opinion, regardless of the level of experience of the one with the opinion. I really prefer facts over undocumented theories.

Bob K

[redbear705]

I need some help with my .45 reloading setup...

I have a Lee Turret Press and the Lee .45acp dies. I'm using a Springfield .45 mil-spec.

I am having trouble setting the seating depth consistently with my dies. I tried to set the seating depth to 1.270 (the max is 1.275). My reloads ranged from 1.265 to 1.276! with no adjusting of the seating nob!! I cleaned out the seating die, it had some goop in there but the results didn't really improve.

My questions:
1-is this normal? should I be worried?
2-Is it best to set as close to the max as possible or do i just try different lengths and find the longest (under the max) that will feed properly?
3-Do I really need to use the crimp die that came with the set? What's it for? How can I see how much crimp its applying.
4-I've heard that resizing, turning 1/2 and resizing again is worthwhile, is that true, How about with the seating process?

Thanks!

are you using the Lee Factory Crimp die to crimp? If not the you need to borrow/buy one and try it you will like it over the taper crimp die...these really help in getting your ammo to function properly....

Also....take your barrel out of the gun, If the new loaded round does not just drop into place then something is wrong and needs to be addressed.

I had a similar problem...I took out all my 45acp barrels and did the drop in test and when I got the seating/crimping correct I use the same depth and crimp for all my 45acp...which happens to be 1.250"...the guns run flawless and can be used in all my 45acp's.

JR

[35remington]

Bob, a chamber that is a full .010" shorter than the SAAMI maximum length round as HeavyMetal has isn't "in spec." It's at least .010" short, as the shortest chamber must accept the longest SAAMI case. (His case measured .893 and was .005" past the barrel hood). Neither of his new barrels is "in spec" given his stated dimensions. You may look up the SAAMI spec chamber and cartridge dimensions to confirm.

Failing to address the short chamber could mean continued problems unless cases are trimmed.

bob, you ain't gonna find your "study."

I highly doubt you will find, unless you go over each gunsmith's records, where they recorded what the exact headspace dimensions were of every gun they have, given chamber length and slide/hood fit.

They will ony note instances where the chamber is cut so excessively deep, and the cases are so short, that the case is headspacing on the extractor. This means everything is well out of spec, and tolerance stacking exists.

It's easily determined that it's not very common for the case to headspace on the extractor - even you'll admit most of your 1911's don't do so.

Asserting that it's common more often than not is certainly incorrect. As long as individual parts (chamber, slide, extractor, hood) are within tolerances, it'll headspace on the chamber mouth or bullet. Because it was designed to headspace on the case mouth, not the extractor, and tolerances are held such that that is what occurs.

You're looking for a needle in a haystack. You're proceeding on the assumption that most guns headspace on the extractor when they were deliberately toleranced to avoid it. Sure, tolerance stacking could occur and allow extractor headspacing, but not as the default condition.