308-444 forming issues

[68 couper]

I am seeing alot of brass loss. I am looking for some guidance. I picked up some new starline 444 brass and chamfered the cases. I am not familiar with the annealing for this. I put the case in the drill and hit it with propane in the area to be worked. Ran it a little past discoloration. Maybe 6 seconds. Never got red. Water quenched. Ran um up into the small base .308 die. Lubed with RCBS case forming lube. Just smeared an ultra-light coating with fingers. Run the case up easy a little bit at a time backing off and coming back into it.
I'm not seeing any case collapsing but there are shallow creases down the neck and or the sholder junction. I have 3 good out of 10 attempts.
Any thoughts and experience is greatly appreciated.
Couper

[EDG]

Don't size the case so much in one pass. Try using a.44-40 and then a 38-40 size or trim dies.Then go to a .358 win die then a 8mm Kurz. I used a number of intermediate dies to form .444 to .303 British. Just be sure you wipe off nearly all the lube at the shoulder. The creases are caused by lube getting trapped.
To avoid wasting 444 brass use .30-06 brass or equivalent to develop your process.
Range pickup brass in cal 30-06 or 270 will do for sacrificing during process development.

[Hamish]

68,

Not sure how much different there is between the 444/.308 and the .308 Bellm (.444 run through .308 dies), but I used once fired .444 brass without annealing. I lost 3 out of 100, but you have to understand that I'm OCD anal about saving brass. I was *VERY* careful and deliberate in the forming strokes, turning the case after every little bit.

Really dont think annealing your new cases again is helping you, and believe it is causing a higher failure rate.

Great idea by EDG about using -06 family cases to get a feel for it.

[BK7saum]

As brass is new, I don't think you need to anneal initially. I would size the necks to 41 or 10mm, anneal and then go to .357. Might add a step or two in between if necessary. Too much lube is not your friend as it can lead to the longitudinal creases in the neck.

[Mk42gunner]

Your shallow creases may be caused by the case not being completely round before trying to neck them down. I would run the new cases through a .444 or .44 mag die set before tryin to size them down. Also almost any intermediate step will help, as others have mentioned.

I don't anneal until after the forming is done, unless it really needs it to continue.

Robert

[68 couper]

Good stuff, thanks guys-
Couper

[68 couper]

Any chance you were successful with Starline 444? Still no bueno. All my large shell casings are Remington. Mike Bellm told me he spoke with an engineer for Rem brass and there's magic stuff in their alloy and that is why it's preferred. I do know the Starline is thicker by 14 grains or so over Rem and hornady. I picked up the Starline to work with before I have a custom tube made for the Contender.
Thanks,
Couper

[jsn]

Link to the .308 Bellm with some forming advice:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=69&

[modified5]

I use Remington .444 brass and size down to 7mm for my 7mm L&L.
It is a three step process and I have never lost a piece of brass. I use a light coat of Lyman sizing lube and so far it works great.
I then anneal and only neck size about 3/4 of the neck after firing.
I have never used starline brass to build a wildcat so I have no experience with that.