casting for 44 mag

[TCFAN]

In my Marlin Cowboy 20 inch 44 mag. I have not had any luck with the Lyman 429215 SWC. My mold cast to small and it has to be beagled.My rifle needs .433 to shoot accurate and a boolit no heavier than about 265 grains.My boolit of choice in a Accurate made mold is a 43-230C that cast .434 from ACWW. I size at .433 and use a aluminum home made gas check.Using 10 grains of Unique it shoots better than I can hold using a tang site.

[44man]

Marlin went with Greenhill. I complained and they sent me Greenhill in the mail.
I have charts for all calibers based on the formula and none work. It ALWAYS has too slow a twist. Some altered figures to match what they shoot to make Greenhill fit. Does NOT work. You can alter to look right is all. Greenhill was for civil war cannons. Round balls like the patched balls in a flinter with a 1 in 60" twist. Can you shoot a long boolit from your flinter?
Notice even the AR's have gone faster twists.
The best of worlds would be a rifle in a .44 with 1 in 16". Why not?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I've never understood the oversized bore spec for rifles, makes no sense to me. They're not all that bad, though. I've been helping a friend with his lately, an 1894 that dates to '75. We slugged the bore and it measures .4295", none of the infamous roll-stamp bore dents either.

My rifle slugs at about .4305 as I recall, and I size all my .44 bullets at .4315. 429244 gc bullets at that size shoot well in both rifles. I've been playing with powder coated bullets a little lately and they seem to work well too.

FE: The bore size difference between Rifle and Revolver barrels is all about pressure. The revolver has a gap between the cylinder and the barrel to bleed off pressure. The Rifle doesn't so they increased the rifle groove dia from 429+/-.002 to .431+/-.002 to give an additional amount for safety.

It is commonly known that the Marlin 1894 Actions are good to about 45-48K psi so a relatively small pressure spike from a round Factory Loaded to 36K psi could cause problems. That's not to mention the Plus P stuff out there for the Big Revolvers that could find their way into a rifle.

Now the Specs have been loosened to .432+.004-000 for both Rifles and Revolvers, so apparently they have pushed the Spec even further to side of caution.

Will be interesting to see if all the manufacturers follow the new Spec or if they develop their own.

Randy

[murf205]

You's guys will be happy know that Marlin is testing .44 cal guns with 1:20 twist barrels. It will be a while before they are available as this outfit (Remington) is a very big company and it takes along time for anything to work it's way thru the system. they don't make changes at the shop level, only after engineering has extensively tested and confirmed the change.

This is necessary so indiscriminate changes don't get made.

These guns will feed just about any type of boolit as long as the mouth of the chamber is chamfered. not that hard to do and I told them about that mod as well so maybe they will start doing it along with the twist change.

You will need boolits at least .432 in dia. to shoot as the groove dia. on these guns is usually around .431 per SAMMI Spec for Rifle .44 Mags.

Randy

They could send me one and I'll test it for them. I'm getting a sweat thinking about a 1:20 twist in a Marlin 44 mag with standard rifling! But....I cant bring myself to buy a 1:38" Micro Groove. A 454 would be nice too.

[44man]

Micro groove is just fine. I have measured them along with Ballard rifling and there is no difference in groove depth. Both are .003" deep. Bore might change a tad, not important. You can fit. Twist is what is important.
Some will always claim good accuracy but beware of that. I don't believe it. I might have shot the smallest 50 yard groups ever with the Marlin. But go out farther and toss rocks.

[JohnH]

Seems the 1-38 twist is one of those 'its always been that way things'. Even tho nobody can say for sure why it even started that way to begin with. But no reason to fix it.

It was a hold over from teh 44-40 which used a 200 grain bullet. It will stabilize the shorter wide flatnose designs (LBT) quite well. It will even stabilize Speers 270 grainer. I know. I used a Handi Rifle with 1/38 twist to shoot five deer with 250 grain LGT copies (actually the Lee 310 with the gas check shank milled off) and the 270 Gold Dot. All bullets drove stright through the deer with no signs of destabilization in the body. (Deer are actually light weight and prolly not the best test subject for such an analisis, but that is my experience) The twist also stabilizes the Lyman 429421 quite well. The same Handi Rifle absolutely dotes on those dropped from an NOE mold I have. I was never able to get 300 grainers or heavier to stabilize in that barrel. It is odd that the 1/38 twist was kept even though the army had pushed for the 1873 Springfield to have a 1/20 twist so the knowledge that faster twist played in stabilization was well known. As well, all 44 handgun barrels have been 1/20 twist. Only the engineers at Marlin who reintroduced the 1894 in 44 Mag can tell us and they are likely gone to their reward at this late date. Rossi uses a 1/32 twist. Go figure.

[44man]

Someone figure the slowest rate in a rifle would be 1 in 25", might have been Larry. However I think 20" is better if you use heavy weights.
My grandson and I killed deer with the one I had but his was close and at 65 yards from a rested position my boolit hit 10" from where I aimed. I hit high front shoulder for a fast drop though. The .44 rifle is a wonderful deer gun.
Funny Marlin gets most calibers correct but I blame a pencil neck at a desk for the .44. Bad thing was other makers did the same.

[fatelk]

My first experience with the Marlin .44 mag was nearly 30 years ago, when my dad bought one. My dad doesn't like guns but he figured we needed something like that on the farm. I remember he bought a couple boxes of ammo with it that wouldn't hit the proverbial broad side of the barn. I could get them on paper up close, but they couldn't find the target at all at a hundred yards. I don't know where they were going. Branches were falling out of trees overhead.

This ammo was loaded by Miwall, 240gr. JHP over 11 or 12 grains of what looked like 231. I was a beginning reloader and had a pound of 2400. I pulled all that ammo apart and reloaded it with a good charge of 2400, and it shot pretty good. I've always wondered what was going on there. Must have been a velocity/barrel twist thing?

I have also noticed that my 1894 doesn't seem to like lighter loads. It's does OK with heavy loads, but the 10gr of Unique/429421 load for my 629? Not so good in the rifle, not at all. The barrel is nice and clean, no leading, but accuracy is poor at best.

[W.R.Buchanan]

As John H above stated it was a hold over from the .44-40 barrels and 200 gr boolits. However if you want to get one of these guns to shoot heavier boolits you will have to get the speed up. Speed x Twist Rate = rpms on the Bullet.

Every boolit has a sweet spot at which it stabilizes and flies strait. The longer the boolit the faster it must turn to fully stabilize. Hence the 1:7 twist barrels for AR's designed to shot 75+gr bullets. At the other end of the spectrum Round Balls need very little rotation to fly more accurately than a Knuckle Ball which is effectively what a smoothbore is launching. Round Balls have a length to width ratio of 1:1 which is about what a 200 gr .44 boolit has. Thus little need for faster twist. It was probably easier to cut slow twist rifling as well.

However faster twist rate seems to only enhance accuracy so maybe Greenhill was FOS? I don't believe in over stabilization unless the bullet is coming apart. So just maybe just spinning the thing faster can be of benefit.

The Marlins need at least 1600 fps to start to work with larger boolits and 1800 is better. Revolver barrels are 1:20 because the boolits only go half as fast therefore the twist must be doubled to get the same RPM's as the Rifle. This was no doubt calculated by using the Greenhill Formula as well.

Obviously this was old school thinking, and now things appear to have evolved to faster twist rates. Ruger made the 77/44 Rifles with 1:20 twist barrels and they will shoot MOA with the right loads.

My standard load for my 1894 CB 24" is 22 gr of H110 and a 429244 from Mihec sized .432 at 265 gr with gas check. This boolit is by far the best shooter in my rifle and even feeds perfectly loaded at 1.670 OAL. The chamfer on the chamber mouth works, and I keep telling you guys about it!

This gun is sighted dead on at 100 yards and only requires a 6MOA correction to be on at 150 and another 6 MOA for 200. I use this gun for Short Range Silhouette primarily and the accuracy is good enough for that game and scores in the hi 20's/40 are normal for me with that gun. This is shot offhand with iron sights.

Some day I will have to pack up the truck with all the equipment and hit the range during the week when I got it to myself and really put the gun on paper and chrono it and see what's what. When I originally sighted it in I was using 24 gr of H110 and an LBT 250 gr WFN, and got groups of 1.5" at 50 yards and about 3" at 100. That was before the Lyman 66LA and XS Front Sight.

We have hanging Silhouette Targets set at the appropriate distances at the OVGC and so all sighting after the initial shooting was done on those looking for dead center hits to confirm elevation at the 4 distances.

Lastly the phrase "because we've always done it that way," is one of the most moronic statements a person can make,,, and really isn't even a good reason to wipe your butt!

Randy

[TCFAN]

I have always used my Marlin 44 Mag as a 44-40. I settled on the Accurate 430-230C RF gas check boolit with 10 grs of Unique. I have know idea what the velocity is and I am not sure I have ever run it over my Chrony.It shoots very well with this load which I think is on the lite side for a 44 Mag.case. To shoot accurate with all boolits that I have tried I have to size them to at least .432 and .433 is better.

I would like to try it on Short Range Silhouette targets some time. I do have a groundhog steel popper target set 125 yards from my benchrest that I can hit most days on command using sand bags. My rifle has a Marble tang site and a front site by XS which helps me a lot.If I was to get real serious with silhouette I might change the front site for a Lyman 17-A.

[44man]

The problem is the small case that is hard to get the velocity with. We are having trouble with the .444, factory stuff with 240's is a game of luck to hit paper but the 265 RD seems to work with a good dose of 4198 or AA 2230.
I would like to try a fatter .432" but brass is hard to chamber so I have to use .431" for the neighbor.
MR has a .44 with 1 in 16" but the barrel is too short without going through the custom shop. I would love one in at least 7-1/2".

[JesterGrin_1]

Like everything else in life it is a personal decision. Some really like the Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag while others will curse them. The Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag does have its own benefits but hunting accuracy at 100 yards or so is not it. Again it depends on each persons qualifications for accuracy. The best with a scope I could get with my JM Marlin 1894 SS was right at 2 3/4 to 3.00" if I did my part at 100 yards but I would also get a flyer that would open up the group to 3.5" or so at 100 yards. So because of that fact I did not trust bullet placement on game as a good hunter we should do our best to dispatch the animal as cleanly as possible.

So I sold it to someone that simply loves the rifle for what they do and purchased a JM Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 Government of which has proven itself to be one fine accurate rifle that will deliver 3/4" 100 yard groups if I do my part.

[flint45]

Like a lot of you I have been mess'in around with my Marlin 1894 for along time, settled on one thing it,s not going to shoot how I would like it to. .430 bore is no problem just make'm fatter but my barrel is cursed with 3 tight spots bore lapped and did not fix the problem.I just shoot it for fun heavy duty plinker.The Accurate 43-230c works the best of all my molds with 11.0 grs. of herco.its a good short range stump buster made lot of fire wood with it more fun then chopping.

[fatelk]

The best with a scope I could get with my JM Marlin 1894 SS was right at 2 3/4 to 3.00" if I did my part at 100 yards but I would also get a flyer that would open up the group to 3.5" or so at 100 yards.

That's about the best that I've been able to get out of either mine or my buddy's 1894. Mine was a lot worse until I figured out that the magazine tube was binding badly against the barrel. It helped a lot once I relieved that. My friend works in animal control (government trapper). He uses it for bear from time to time, and typically within 25 yards. He says that bears will drop like a rock.

[JesterGrin_1]

That's about the best that I've been able to get out of either mine or my buddy's 1894. Mine was a lot worse until I figured out that the magazine tube was binding badly against the barrel. It helped a lot once I relieved that. My friend works in animal control (government trapper). He uses it for bear from time to time, and typically within 25 yards. He says that bears will drop like a rock.

This might also catch you the bullet I did the best with was the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC with a healthy dose of W-296 and a standard Large Pistol primer Not a Mag primer. 44 Man here on the forum helped me out a good bit. But as mentioned with hundreds of test rounds and a few bullet designs I finally gave up lol.

[44man]

We watched thousands of 45-70 boolits to 500 meters with spotting scopes.
The Browning sporting falling block has a 1 in 20" and mine is 1 in 18" for heavier BP boolits. It still fails at distance. The 405 Lyman did not shoot at all, darn thing cast too small at .457", need at least .460" for the bore size. The Rapine .500 gr Gov't shoots best at .460 and heavier goes to pot. I have boolits to 564 gr and they are a waste. Somewhere around 300 to 400 meters you can watch them go somewhere else. Like watching a BB from a Red Ryder.
Best shooters had custom rifles and barrels but my gosh, I could not afford the trigger guard. Just another sport where money counts.
I would put a 1 in 15" on the Browning if I had the money. Velocity is so limited with BP. Like a .44, you just can't shoot faster and a lighter boolit is needed.
Some barrels need put in a forge and a pipe wrench to wind them up! There is no solution for a slow twist, faster you can download.
Twist killed many rifles and calibers, great .244 was one, better then a .243 but the twist was for lighter varmint bullets and everyone wanted 100 gr for deer. I never liked the 22-250 either and preferred the Swift for long ranges. I could use a 60 gr Hornady.
I liked the .222 better then the .223 too. But they now wind up the .223.