454 casull advice.

[Whiterabbit]

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

"The phenomena of Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE) is known to occur only with the slow powders at very low loading densities. "

aka: drop bullet on powder and the loading density is 100%

Funny I had a very similar experience with AA#9 and cast bullets, plain base.

[44man]

I had it with the BFR 45-70 when I dropped the load of 4759 1/2 gr for a heavier boolit. Had to go back up. Boolit and powder in the bore.
I had filler in too.

[Tatume]

I guess I should clarify what I mean. By light for caliber I was thinking 260gr ish not the lightest that data is available for but on the lower section. By moderate charge I meant sticking near the start charge from the data available.

My thought process was lighter bullets recoil less than heavy bullets both pushed equally hard. Also light bullets means more powder in the charge and more muzzle blast. Is my thought process wrong?

With the slow burning powders like H110/W296 you will have trouble with 260 grain bullets, even with book starting loads. The loads are too light, and the bullets are too light. The best thing you can do is use either Unique or 2400, and better still would be to also use 45 Colt cases. The 454 Casull is a high performance cartridge, and trying to load it the way you wish with light bullets and slow powders is kind of like driving a top fuel drag-race car in the city. It can be done, but it's not safe.

[z28z34man]

How about something along this line. I am not sure if the 360gr lfn mold is available and if it is if water dropped wheel weights would be adequate but at least I could maybe cast if he likes them

BULLET WEIGHT360 GR. CPB LFN GC
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderH110
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.760"
Starting Load
Grains21.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,265
Pressure24,000 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains24.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,447
Pressure43,400 CUP

[Tatume]

My favorite load in the 454 Casull is a 325 grain LBT LFN bullet with a maximum charge of H110 or W296, as found at the Hodgdon reloading web site.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Tom W.]

I liked Lil' Gun with my .454, and a 300 gr. Boolit..It was super accurate out of the Encore pistol. It was also too much for me and I sold it.

[Whiterabbit]

How about something along this line. I am not sure if the 360gr lfn mold is available and if it is if water dropped wheel weights would be adequate but at least I could maybe cast if he likes them

BULLET WEIGHT360 GR. CPB LFN GC
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderH110
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.760"
Starting Load
Grains21.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,265
Pressure24,000 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains24.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,447
Pressure43,400 CUP

Heavy for cal mold?

325: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...ppjbt7aavp2kd3

350: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...ppjbt7aavp2kd3

315: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...ppjbt7aavp2kd3

405: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...ppjbt7aavp2kd3

378: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...ppjbt7aavp2kd3

425: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...ppjbt7aavp2kd3

That 425 is what I shoot, and the first bullet I would try to qualify in a 454 if I bought one. I'd measure my cylinder (I assume 1.8 or 1.9"), measure bullet OAL, and pour H110 in a 454 case until it reached the bae of the bullet assuming I used an OAL at .05" off max. Then I would weigh the charge and see where that left me on the load data end of things. If it made sense, I'd try it. If it made no sense, I'd start looking at the 395's and lower with the standard Hodgdon data.

That's just me. But all sorts of those bullets I linked to have all sorts of desirable features. I'd pick any of them (any) with a fat meplat, lots of driving band, minimal lube groove, and an ogive that terminates at full diameter (all these features are my personal preference, other people like plain SWC for example) and be GTG with H110, 2400, 4198, whatever gave reliable ignition and the right velocity (as measured by downrange results)

[Lloyd Smale]

Some still don't understand that a 250 cast bullet going 1200 fps will most times outperform the same bullet going 1800 fps. Especially on larger animals. I'm not a big 454 fan. I have one a FA gun. I don't think its ever seen a bullet lighter then 300 grain. To me its silly to even fool with them. If I want to plink I have 38 specials. For the most part if I need that kind of power I grab a 475 or 500 anyway. The 475 is a much more flexible round. Downloads much better and has more power and heavier bullets on the top end. My honest opinion is the 454 and the 460 do nothing PRACTICAL that cant be done with a 45 colt large frame ruger or redhawk. they both easily push a 300 grain bullet to over 1200 fps. Anything much over 1300 and penetration can suffer because most alloys wont hold up to hitting a big bone at any faster speed and the bullet deforms or cracks and straight deep penetration is gone. I shake my head at the guys with 454s and 460s that claim they have a viable 200 yard deer gun. Ive yet to meet one that can put 5 shots into a paper plate at 200 yards EVERY time and most struggle to hit it once. If I have to carry a gun as big as a scoped 460 in the woods and I want to shoot 200 yards at living things ill pass and take a good bolt action rifle!! I call it stunt hunting. Wound two or three deer before you can kill one to show your buddys. Sorry guys but the finiky 454 should have died a fast death with the first factory 475 that hit a dealers shelf and I really doubt if one in 50 460s that were sold were sold to knowledgeable gun owners. Most were just pyro shows for young men at the range. If I really wanted one of those BIG smiths (which I don't) it would be a 4 inch 500. It would at least be able to be carried without a wheelbarrow and can push some real formidable bullets to 1300fps.

Educational thread. I do have access to a 454, so I've been following with interest.

Sounds as though a 250 gr. in 454 is the rough equivalent of say a 120 gr. in a .357 mag, and that the very slow powders (2400, H110) are best left for the heavier-for-caliber boolits. Good to know.

[Whiterabbit]

Only quesiton I have, is why does .1" added onto a case make the 454 so much less flexible? 45 colt has a reputation for being among the MOST flexible rounds available!

If I take a 454 and cut it down .1" shorter, would it become more flexible?

[44man]

Only quesiton I have, is why does .1" added onto a case make the 454 so much less flexible? 45 colt has a reputation for being among the MOST flexible rounds available!

If I take a 454 and cut it down .1" shorter, would it become more flexible?

It is the primer only. Dick destroyed many guns looking for the fastest .45 ever. He used duplex and triplex loads, yes a charge of Bullseye to start ignition so I guess he found a LP primer made too much pressure or blew primers.
But since we don't fool with those things and factory loads are not made that way, why the SR primer stuck defies things.
I know for a fact and from experience, a LP mag primer will turn the .454 into what it should have been.
I started reaming primer pockets to a LP but believe me you will go nuts. But it worked. Starting book loads of 296 never failed and we could work up and I went over max to test primers and a Fed 155 never hiccuped at well over 55,000.
Now just cut .460 brass, much better.

[44man]

But then I will agree with Lloyd---WHY? Heavy boolit for elephant or buf.
Then a 1 in 24" twist of most guns makes it a hoax. The twist is a balls to the wall thing. Sorry, I never fell for the hoopla.
So you have the wrong primer and twist rate and want a flexible gun.
Don't blame me. I didn't do it.

[Whiterabbit]

Oh, shoot, I totally forgot about gun twist.

OP, check your twist. ALL my experience is based on a 1-16 twist like the 45 colts. If your 454 is a 1 in 24, everything might be different. Sorry about that. (I worry less about 454 vs 460 cause because 65ksi is 65ksi. But the twist could really bite you)

As for why a heavy bullet, I like it because slower bullets recoil much less (500 grains @ 1370 fps = less recoil than 200 grains @ 2500 fps), and makes it much more cast friendly. I have no qualms taking the 460 pig hunting with an excessively heavy bullet. I don't think many here would have an issue taking a 45/70 pig hunting either. No reason IMO to poh-poh a 454 if a 45/70 is acceptable. That's purely opinion.

If I had a handgun that REQUIRED jacketed bullets, I would sell it immediately. I don't have the money to shoot only jacketed in a handgun. Even my rifles. I only have 3 guns that use only jacketed bullets. They don't get shot as often because of it.

[Harter66]

Comes down to how much you want or need .

I've seen and shot 265 gr in a Ruger Colts at 1200 fps that's plenty for me . I have a 350 gr bullet suitable for the task also that could be pushed inside the Ruger pressures for Colts up to 1000-1100 fps with Unique .
Yes the recoil was like the full tilt 357 , nope I don't care for that either .

You really have 2 choices .
1 run it wide open with 275s and up with big loads of slower powders .
2 set it up to be fun to shoot with Unique or Blue Dot class powders with 230-265 gr bullets and work them up until he gets the feel he wants or tops out .

Based on a current project I don't think that a 350 gr bullet moseying along at 1600 fps out of a 5# revolver would be fun to shoot , it's lost almost all of its appeal in a 6# rifle .

[Whiterabbit]

45 colt ruger only tops a 360 grain bullet out at 1150 fps. push it to 1250-1300 in a 454 case and you've got a "proper" 454 that doesn't "waste" the platform, without going full-snot at 1600 or whatever a 350 grain bullet at 65ksi does. Should be plenty pleasant to shoot if the 454 is long barreled and heavy, but satisfy the recoil junky in anyone. I would imagine...

biggest problem is what Lloyd suggests. 5# revolver feels stupid carrying around for a day, just take a rifle. That relegates the gun to range day fun, where the shooter will get poked lots of fun at unless it seriously drives nails.

Or you are like me and a crappy pistolero and struggle to keep all 5 rounds on a 10" plate at 100 yards for more than a couple cylinders. But I long stopped worrying about people pointing and laughing at me.....

[Lloyd Smale]

what that extra .1 does is give more airspace and less pressures with the same powder charge as a 45 colt. That in turn makes ball powders a bit harder to light off and then you try to do it with a small primer. The round was designed to work good at top end pressures and if heavies are loaded like that it works just fine. Ive owned 3 FA 454s in my life. All three of them were absolutely excellent shooters if I pushed heavies fast. reduced loads and light bullets (lighter then 300 grain) or even light bullets fast changed them from excellent shooters to mediocre shooters.

Kind of like putting 85 octane and pulling two plug wires off a vette. Still runs but not nearly like it was designed to. Even the 454 Alaskan I had with its stubby little 2.5 inch barrel shot 1 1/2 groups at 25 yards with stout loads using the rcbs 300 swcgc cast hard. That's one more big mistake people loading the 454 overlook. they think they can push the same bullet and alloy that works in there 45 colt at 1100 fps to 1500 fps in a 454. I takes HARD bullets to stand up to this and to stand up to hitting bone in an animal without deforming or if made hard enough still kept ductile enough to prevent fracturing.

Working with a 454 compared to the 45 colt is like comparing wrenching on and old 283 to a new z06 corvette. cutting the case back would make downloading easier but you still have the problem with the small primer and twist that aren't ideal for the job. Yes the 45 colt is a flexible round but compare it to a 44 mag with a smaller case capacity and its allways been a bit more accurate for me using 250s at 1000 fps and just as accurate if not more then the 45 at top end. What the 45 buys is a very small increase in velocity when pushed to the limit. But it does it with bullet at the same weight level that have a slightly worse bc. For the most part a 44 pushing a 320 to 1200 will out penetrate a 45 colt loaded the same. As it will if both are loaded with 250s at a 1000. Bottom line is if you really want the best gun to own to shoot both light loads and heavy loads capable of killing anything the 44 mag is king. Allways has been. A guy with a 4-6inch 44 mag on his hip is good to go for anything a handgun can be used for.

Only quesiton I have, is why does .1" added onto a case make the 454 so much less flexible?

If I take a 454 and cut it down .1" shorter, would it become more flexible?

[Boolseye]

What does FA stand for?

[Tatume]

Freedom Arms, a manufacturer of revolvers.

[Tatume]

what that extra .1 does is give more airspace and less pressures with the same powder charge as a 45 colt. That in turn makes ball powders a bit harder to light off and then you try to do it with a small primer.

Using book loads of H110 and Accurate No. 9 that were less than maximum, with bullets weighing between 265 and 325 grains, I have performed the following experiment several times. Load five rounds and begin firing them. On about the third shot a squib occurs. The bullet must then be driven from the barrel. The powder is found to be a yellowish lump at the base of the bullet.

From then until the supply of cartridges so loaded is exhausted, load one at a time and fire. As many as 45 rounds in a row fire normally, with no squibs or hang fires.

The cause is a combination of things. These powders are heavily coated with graphite, making them hard to ignite. They are extremely fine dust, promoting compaction under inertia. There is an airspace, which further promotes compaction.

The sequence of events, in my opinion, is as follows. The first one, two or three cartridges fire, generating recoil. The gunpowder in the remaining cartridges is compacted at the base of the bullet, and the air space in the cartridges separates the powder from the flame of the primer. The compaction itself, the graphite coating, and the distance from the primer combine to cause a failure to ignite. The force of the primer drives the bullet and powder into the barrel.

I know there is an argument that the small rifle primer is itself the culprit, and there may be some merit to this. However, it is the lesser of the influences. The fact that a long sequence of cartridges can be fired without a single misfire so long as they are not subjected to recoil (that is, single loaded), indicates that recoil plays the majority role in the phenomenon.

[Tatume]

P.s. This may also explain why so many loading manuals contain 454 Casull loads with insufficient powder for reliable ignition. Loads are tested in pressure guns, which are single shot firearms. The technicians do not experience the problems that occur in firing the same loads in revolvers.

[454PB]

Using book loads of H110 and Accurate No. 9 that were less than maximum, with bullets weighing between 265 and 325 grains, I have performed the following experiment several times. Load five rounds and begin firing them. On about the third shot a squib occurs. The bullet must then be driven from the barrel. The powder is found to be a yellowish lump at the base of the bullet.

From then until the supply of cartridges so loaded is exhausted, load one at a time and fire. As many as 45 rounds in a row fire normally, with no squibs or hang fires.

The cause is a combination of things. These powders are heavily coated with graphite, making them hard to ignite. They are extremely fine dust, promoting compaction under inertia. There is an airspace, which further promotes compaction.

The sequence of events, in my opinion, is as follows. The first one, two or three cartridges fire, generating recoil. The gunpowder in the remaining cartridges is compacted at the base of the bullet, and the air space in the cartridges separates the powder from the flame of the primer. The compaction itself, the graphite coating, and the distance from the primer combine to cause a failure to ignite. The force of the primer drives the bullet and powder into the barrel.

I know there is an argument that the small rifle primer is itself the culprit, and there may be some merit to this. However, it is the lesser of the influences. The fact that a long sequence of cartridges can be fired without a single misfire so long as they are not subjected to recoil (that is, single loaded), indicates that recoil plays the majority role in the phenomenon.

Your theory sounds logical. Here was one of my adventures:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...430#post232430