Henry Big Boy in 44mag won't shoot.

[longbow]

I am with you 44man!

I have to think that slow twist was a carryover from .44-40 days for lightweight boolits. The .44-40 twist was slow as well. The .44 mag. Marlin was intended to shoot pistol boolits and does so reasonably well if they are not over 270 grs. or so though a faster twist would make the gun so much more versatile and not hurt accuracy with the lighter weight boolits.

Now why on earth Marlin would have saddled the .444 with such a slow twist is beyond me and most others. It was supposed to be a "modern .45-70" operating at higher pressure but they set it all up to shoot handgun boolits and lightweight handgun boolits at that. If made with 1:20" twist or thereabouts it would handle boolits of 400 grs. easily making it competitive with the .45-70. That is a different discussion though.

Longbow

[44man]

I am with you 44man!

I have to think that slow twist was a carryover from .44-40 days for lightweight boolits. The .44-40 twist was slow as well. The .44 mag. Marlin was intended to shoot pistol boolits and does so reasonably well if they are not over 270 grs. or so though a faster twist would make the gun so much more versatile and not hurt accuracy with the lighter weight boolits.

Now why on earth Marlin would have saddled the .444 with such a slow twist is beyond me and most others. It was supposed to be a "modern .45-70" operating at higher pressure but they set it all up to shoot handgun boolits and lightweight handgun boolits at that. If made with 1:20" twist or thereabouts it would handle boolits of 400 grs. easily making it competitive with the .45-70. That is a different discussion though.

Longbow

Actually a 45-70 is slow at 1 in 18"

[longbow]

Whatever the twist, we are in agreement that both the .44 mag and 444 should have much faster twists and especially the 444 which would allow appropriate heavy weight boolits of 400+ grains to be loaded and shot which would indeed make it a "modern .45-70" with performance exceeding .45-70 factory ammunition. Having said that of course in a modern Marlin or other strong gun the .45-70 can be loaded to much higher than factory pressure levels so it would likely still out perform the 444. Non-reloaders would not see that benefit though.

Who knows why the decisions to use slow twists were made but I suspect that people making far more money than I do made those decisions.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yes, heavy boolits need driven very fast and it will exceed pressures the gun can take. Plus the .44 is a small case after all. Marlin got a lot of flack over the .444 in 1 in 38", even that one had troubles so they changed it to 1 in 20" at some point.
Why gun makers from Marlin on decided on the wrong twist baffles me. Other calibers did not go that way, just the .44.
MY SBH, 10" will stabilize a 310 gr at 1316 fps with 1 in 20". Imagine what is needed with 1 in 38"?
It will be much more then 1400 fps. Those are book numbers from formulas that never work. An off the cuff would be over 2000 fps.
I went and calculated it and found you need to get a 310 gr to 2500 fps to match my revolver spin.
Anyone up to making a .44 do that? You CAN NOT do it in a .444.

Ha I can tell you how they got the 1:38 in the 444; some purchasing agent decided they could save money and buy the same barrel blanks as the 44 (quantity discounting) . I bet they did so without even consulting the design department. Before they know it they build a truck load of useless 444 rifles. Quantity discounting is what drives mfg in this country. It also hurts many products that could be so much better. The other premise might be lower operating pressure with the slower twist. Great for round ball shooting not so good for elongated projectiles.

[44man]

Might be right but why did Ruger and Henry screw it up too? Many others followed too.
One of our good fellows here found a .44 rifle tops for slow twists at 1 in 25" for normal weights but 1 in 20" is better for heavy.
Ruger messed up too and made the magazine to fit light bullets. Even if the twist was made right, you could not fit the magazine with larger.

[Ramjet-SS]

Well all companies have to answer to the stock holders or owner. That means ROI so decisions are made for the sake of the overall bottom line. For example if Company B buys 5000 1:38 twist barrel blanks and Company A could tag onto that production for allot less than asking for 1:20 twist blanks then they by all means are going with profit over design criteria if they all agree it's not that big a deal. Will most who purchase the 44 buy thier ammo and shoot the commercially available 180-240 grain bullets? Probably. Just because a few "know it all cast bullet shooters" (toungue and cheek) say the 1:16 or the 1:20 is a better performing twist; Are they the majority of folks who purchase the weapons? Maybe but most like they are not. Would most the buying public pay 10-15-25% more for those rifles with the faster twist? Do they even know it matters?

[OverMax]

What does the manufacture suggest for a bullet weight/s being shot out of their rifle? Start there and end your search there to garners the rifles best overall accuracy is my suggestion.

[Flinchrock]

I can't help the OP with his accuracy problem, but I would like to comment on the twist rate subject.

My Henry BB in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:16, and my Winchester/Miroku '92 in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:20,checked by me, more than once. Both of these rifles shoot just fine. The heaviest bullet I have that they will feed is a 285 RNFPgc from Accurate.

I think that I got lucky with the BB because they are supposed to be 1:38 also. Interestingly enough, they both slug the same, .4515, without tight spots.

[Flinchrock]

What does the manufacture suggest for a bullet weight/s being shot out of their rifle? Start there and end your search there to garners the rifles best overall accuracy is my suggestion.

I just don't think I could hardly stand it if I was Forced to shoot light, jacketed bullets...

[sghart3578]

I can't help the OP with his accuracy problem, but I would like to comment on the twist rate subject.

My Henry BB in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:16, and my Winchester/Miroku '92 in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:20,checked by me, more than once. Both of these rifles shoot just fine. The heaviest bullet I have that they will feed is a 285 RNFPgc from Accurate.

I think that I got lucky with the BB because they are supposed to be 1:38 also. Interestingly enough, they both slug the same, .4515, without tight spots.

That is good to hear about the Henry. I just bought a Henry BB Steel today in 357 mag. I will shoot it tomorrow but based on what I have seen already my next rifle will be a Henry in 45 Colt.


Steve in N CA

[GMW]

A friend of mine gave me 10 hornady 200grs XTP's and I loaded them up under 28.5grs of h110 with a magum CCI primer. My largest group was 2 inches at 50yds with manageable recoil. I have a red fiber optic skinner front sight which is kind of large so I probably could of done better with a post sight. I ordered some Hornady 180gr xtp's and I have good expectations with those. I like to shoot daily so I will still be looking for a good cast alternative. Thank you all for the time you gave posting and suggestions. This site is a gem!

[Ramjet-SS]

Ahh things getting better that's good to hear. I bet the 180 XTPs will group as well.

[Ramjet-SS]

That is good to hear about the Henry. I just bought a Henry BB Steel today in 357 mag. I will shoot it tomorrow but based on what I have seen already my next rifle will be a Henry in 45 Colt.


Steve in N CA

You are going to love that 357. I just got a BB Carbine and have run 350 rounds through it already in two weeks. What hoot it is too shoot. I a, going to scope it up next week and see just what it will do.

[longbow]

If you are looking for a lightweight boolit take a look at the Accurate Molds site. Tom has quite a range of weights for the .44 and will make about anything you want.

I got him to scale down a light .45 TC to .44 in 165 gr. at 0.433"+ diameter for plinking and really like it.

I am betting your Henry will shoot well with up to at least 240 gr. and likely heavier in jacketed. I have to say that I never light loaded my Marlin so can't say how those 270 gr. would do at lower velocity. I have always loaded those near max.

The little 165 gr. does well over 8 grs. of 700x. It is a bit light though as I wanted a real lightweight boolit and that it is. 180 gr. to 200 gr. would be a bit more versatile for general shooting with more load data available and should shoot well for you.

Longbow

[44man]

I have always found most other calibers are rifled right, just the .44 is the pain. I never understood the reason.
A .45 with 1 in 16" should handle 335 to maybe 350 gr boolits.
My 45-70 BFR is 1 in 14" and it will shoot 300 gr and up, very versatile and the best is my 317 gr and the heaviest I have shot is 420 and it is still accurate. I have not tried my 500 gr+ yet, no need. I will always believe a faster twist is better because you can load down or get a short barrel to shoot and a heavier boolit will work better.
A strange one was the S&W 29's with 1 in 18-3/4". Perfect for very heavy but the guns hate recoil. They all shot into 1/2" at 50 meters with 240 gr bullets but watched through a spotting scope showed a corkscrew flight at range. They flew a rotation around the flight path. Going to a 250 gr eliminated it. Over spin did no harm to accuracy.
The 45-70 sporting rifle will have 1 in 20" but the BPCR is 1 in 18" for heavier boolits but still not fast enough because they shoot slower. They should be 1 in 16". A 500 gr boolit is still in the .45 Colt velocity range.
I also believe as a barrel is shortened on a revolver, the twist should be faster since the loss of velocity even though small affects stability.
The S&W .460 has a gain twist but guys cut them short. I don't know if the .500 S&W has a gain twist. The BFR in .500 JRH is 1 in 15" and still needs pushed. But it still works down to 6".
Close range target shooters like a slower twist so they don't get the cork screw. But long range needs faster so the boolit will settle and still have spin. Twist is so important.

[ironhead7544]

When the 444 Marlin came out, there was no suitable jacketed bullet for it. So they went with the 240 gr that was available at the time.

The 240 gr bullets were accurate in the 1 in 38 twist. Hornady came out with a 265 gr bullet with a heavier jacket for rifle speeds. They determined the 265 was the heaviest that gave good accuracy.

The 444 Marlin was the last of the Express type cartridges, IMHO. It was meant to revive the high powered lever rifle and give it a bit more range.

[GMW]

If you are looking for a lightweight boolit take a look at the Accurate Molds site. Tom has quite a range of weights for the .44 and will make about anything you want.

I got him to scale down a light .45 TC to .44 in 165 gr. at 0.433"+ diameter for plinking and really like it.

I am betting your Henry will shoot well with up to at least 240 gr. and likely heavier in jacketed. I have to say that I never light loaded my Marlin so can't say how those 270 gr. would do at lower velocity. I have always loaded those near max.

The little 165 gr. does well over 8 grs. of 700x. It is a bit light though as I wanted a real lightweight boolit and that it is. 180 gr. to 200 gr. would be a bit more versatile for general shooting with more load data available and should shoot well for you.

Longbow

Yesterday I loaded up some XTP's in 180grs over 28.2grs of H110 with a CCI 300 primer. My groups were good at a consistant 1.5 inches at my 50yd range. I believe that I can tighten them up a bit when I remove the Skinner red fiber front sight and install a brass post sight.
So, my Henry will shoot light bullets, not real happy about that though I have no one to blame but myself for not finding out the twist before I bought the rifle. I will give longbow's suggestion a try when my mold funds get replenished. If anyone is willing to sell me a dozen or so of lighter cast boolits, please pm me with your address and I will send you the funds plus shipping this Monday. Thanks!

[44man]

I would love to help. I designed a long range boolit and had Dave farmer make a mold. I expected the SBH to shoot it but no luck. It shot great from the marlin at 50 but at 100--NO! It is not a good hunting boolit either, very small meplat.
I made a lube test and got this at 50.Attachment 179659 Left was hard LBT Blue and right was Felix. The boolit is adjustable from 240 to 250 and I don't remember what I shot.
Strange thing is that it is shorter then my LBT boolits but would not function in the Marlin so I had to shorten brass. I could not eject a live round. Why the LBT's worked confused me.
Not much you can do with twist.