Overwhelmed By Self Defense Ammo Options

[JWFilips]

Lead Wad Cutter! All you need

[nagantguy]

agreed, for the most part, when you think of all the game harvested and people killed with pure lead it doesn't take the latest Wizz bang that science/marketing can come up with. I just read a very interesting study put out buy the I believe the buckeye shooting association, I'll post diffrence if I'm wrong, out of all the shootings in Ohio in the year of the study I believe again it was 2009 that the 22lr produced fatal wounds in 34% of the people hit with it from there up through 32, 380, 38, 9mm, 40, 45 it wasn't until .357 mag that any handgun caliber produced 34% fatalities . does that mean 357 is the best? 22lr? does it mean any other caliber is sub par? no it means only hits count and it means a lead round nose 22lr round is as deadly as any other projectile and that misses with the most advanced hollow point from a 9 or 40 or 45 mean nothing.

[tygar]

There's a bunch of good responses.

Personally, I like to get 5 or 6 of the top rated premium ammo for a given caliber, shoot it into wet newspaper, water jugs & thru wood. Then, with the top 2 or 3, or even more, if they looked good, I shoot for accuracy, function & point of aim for that particular gun.

When I have narrowed down to a couple, I get 100 rounds, load them in mags, & run thru them all it once for a final function & accuracy test.

Ya, a little spendy, put my az is worth it. Luckily I can afford it, but I would think something similar could be done with a little less ammo.

Sometimes, I can't find a better ammo than what I have used for years. My Kimber Ultra Carry has been using Black Talons since I got it in the 90s.

There's lots of good stuff out there, just find what works best in your gun. Make sure "you" can do what it takes. I also prescribe to what I was taught in the Marines - 2 in the chest, one in the head! Works every time.

[Bigslug]

The bullets are all made of lead and copper.

They all weigh about the same.

They're all travelling about the same velocity, generated by the same chamber pressures, laid down by the same SAAMI guidelines, so they all work in the same guns.

They're all designed to operate along the same FBI guidelines of penetration and expansion.

The biggest difference? The box. Would recommend you shift your search to something heavier for caliber (125 to 147 grains), but within the major brands being picked up by LE agencies, the differences are mostly about marketing.

[knifemaker]

Most law enforcement agencies I am aware of in my area are using Federal HST ammo in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. It has a solid reputation for consistence expansion and penetration. I use it in my Colt defender 1911 that I carry concealed.

[ironhead7544]

I use the 115 gr JHP from CorBon. That load uses the Sierra 115 gr JHP. Since you handload, get a couple of boxes and make some up. That is what I did when I first started using the CorBon. It doesnt have to be a +P loading, you are testing the bullet profile for feeding. My Glocks work perfectly with it and the factory load is the most accurate I have found. Check the gel tests on the net and you will see how it works.

HST also looks good.

[toallmy]

My call would be , what ever you use in that gun to practice with if it works 100 percent of the time and you hit what your shooting at it will work . Just keep shooting till they stop being a threat . Then reload ,

[olafhardt]

If you put an extra hole in a human or critter their health is deminished. I like brass cased 115 fmj ammo. Steel cased ammo has given me some problems in some guns. What I am doing is looking for cheap 115 grain fmj ammo that my guns eat like popcorn. So far I still like my wheelguns.

[6bg6ga]

I'll probably shake the forum to its foundation with what I have to say. My local gun shop tells me ONLY to use defense ammunition because if the situation arrises and you have to shoot you won't be put on the chopping block for using defense ammunition and you would if you used handloads. It would seem that these defense lawyers will try to prove that you OVERLOADED the ammunition if it were handloads. Frankly I called ********. Personally I will have in my guns what I normally shoot simply because I can put everything in the 9 and 10 ring. In other words I have complete control and I don't have to worry about shooting thru my house into someone elses home. Where one round might have stopped someone two might be needed with handloads. My local gun shop thinks I'm crazy and if the situation landed me in front of a jury I would be sent up the river for using homemade ammunition. Look at the primers on defense rounds or simply factory ammunition. Notice how flat they are which means a LOT of pressure where as my home reloads don't show this. Am I wrong?

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'll probably shake the forum to its foundation with what I have to say. My local gun shop tells me ONLY to use defense ammunition because if the situation arrises and you have to shoot you won't be put on the chopping block for using defense ammunition and you would if you used handloads. It would seem that these defense lawyers will try to prove that you OVERLOADED the ammunition if it were handloads. Frankly I called ********. Personally I will have in my guns what I normally shoot simply because I can put everything in the 9 and 10 ring. In other words I have complete control and I don't have to worry about shooting thru my house into someone elses home. Where one round might have stopped someone two might be needed with handloads. My local gun shop thinks I'm crazy and if the situation landed me in front of a jury I would be sent up the river for using homemade ammunition. Look at the primers on defense rounds or simply factory ammunition. Notice how flat they are which means a LOT of pressure where as my home reloads don't show this. Am I wrong?

I've had this discussion, and there's two or three cases that Ayoob always points to and Ayoob readers point to. One, a guy had essentially cowboy loads in a revolver, his wife shot herself but it looked very much like possible murder, and the low powder loads complicated the ballistics by providing very little GSR.

The other that comes up is the case of Harold Fish, because the prosecutor brought up the use of his 10mm Glock. What people should take from the Fish case is not to fire a "warning shot" like he did. Besides that, there's a bunch of other stuff that was brought up, inconsistencies in his story, dogs that were not known to be aggressive, timeline issues, etc. He didn't handload, nor did the 10mm alone make or break his case.

IMO, if you're going to hand load, don't get creative with what you load, first off, and make sure you have a load book showing what you load.

I wouldn't just use anything either. Short barrels mean less velocity, which can mean a failure to perform. Better than nothing, but then you might as well have carried a .32ACP with lead solids, you know? ShootingTheBull410 did a series of reviews of ammo in gel from short barrels in several calibers, very well put together. A number of the standard duty loads didn't expand out of a sub-3" barrel.

I would not use FMJ. Expanding ammo cuts down on the risk of a shoot-through, whereas 9mm ball will zip right on through.

[Murphy]

Can anyone provide me with a link to a criminal murder case where anyone was convicted and sent to prison for using a hand load in a justifiable self defense case?

Thanks,

Murphy

[6bg6ga]

First of all I don't believe there is anyone here that gets creative with loading or whatever this means. Most of my loads are a product of a reloading manual. Anyone with experience loading knows you don't just throw something together and call it good. I have experimented however with my 9mm and have used a 160gr rn lead bullet with about 3.2gr of unique. The result is a nice accurate load that hits where pointed and hits with authority. Pressure signs however are not there so the load can be increased and no its not in the books but rather a product of 50 years plus of reloading. Simply put I carry lead in all my guns unless I feel a need to run some very heavy or fast loads in which case I will go with either plated or jacketed bullets but not for defense. The primer is in my opinion the first indicator of pressure in any round/case. Primer starts to flatten then there are pressure issues and caution must be used.

[tygar]

There are a number of reasons to use "factory" ammo, not the least of which, is one less issue for the prosecutor.

Also, each platform will always find a couple that are definitively better than the others. Each gun is different, likes different ammo, & shoots it to different points of impact.

Yes, they are all made basically the same, with m/l the same components - but - they react differently in each gun & I want the one that "reacts" the best in that particular gun.

All that is less important than putting 2 center chest & 1 in the head. Renders all issues moot.

[jmort]

"please explain?"

In the history of the United States, from its founding to the present, there has never been a single case when someone have been convicted of a crime for using "hand-loads/reloads" in self-defense. Ayboob and his acolytes, rely primarily on a case involving a man who murdered his girlfriend. He claimed she committed suicide. The trial judge refused, wrongly in my opinion, to admit expert witness evidence related to his hand-loaded ammunition. The court reasoned that factory ammunition gun-powder residue patterns would be repeatable and the killer's handloads, no so much, so as to not constitute reliable evidence. Now, a real case of self-defense involving the late Harold Fish stands for the proposition that one should not use factory 10mm ammunition as it is "too powerful" and one should not take tactical firearms training courses, and have "lots of guns and ammunition." The trial court allowed all this evidence in, and along with the other evidence and Mr. Fish was convicted in an alleged self-defense shooting. Thank God an appellate court reversed the conviction, and remanded the case for a new trial but it is a most unfortunate case. The Aboobites ignore State v Fish as it stands for the proposition that you should not use a 10mm for self defense, get tactical firearms training, and have a lot of guns and ammo. He used factory ammunition, but that was not an issue at trial. I do agree with the proposition that if one is determined to use factory ammunition use exactly the same ammunition that the local LEOs use and change when they change. The point is that no one, ever, in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime for using handloads in self defense. I like big slow bullets, with big meplats, that do not violate the Hague Convention.

[Texantothecore]

Some attorneys on this board did a good amount of research and found that there were no cases in which someone was convicted because of handloads. None.
One case had a prosecutor bring up the subject for about thirty seconds and then went to another subject.

SAAMI specs severely limit the production of super duper magic rounds.
If there were any magic rounds they would be on the market.
Handgun rounds are weak rounds compared to rifle and shotgun both which are legal for defense.

Juries are uniform in their opinion that you shoot what is in your gun.

The idea that you should not use handloads is nonsense.

Ayoob is good in many areas of shooting but his main job is to sell more handguns and more factory ammo and he is very, very good at that.

The most impotant attributes of a round are:
It can be consistently placed by the defender
It will stop inside the perp and not exit to injure innocent bystanders.

I shoot pure lead in my .45 Colt. Semi-wadcutters that have good expansion and will not exit.

The "Handbook of Ballistics" lists wadcutters above hps as having the highest level of energy transfer to the perp.

[Ed K]

If one loads the actual CCW with the boutique ammo but to qualify the ammo one matches bullet (e.g. Gold Dot), OAL and velocity via a book load, is there really any need to shoot a bunch of factory ammo to verify function in the firearm? I would think not. Seems the cheapest way out for a handloader that carries.

[Texantothecore]

The case Ayoob worked on showed no powder burns or residue on her skin. Ayoob determined that 21 inches was the point at which there would be no powder evidence. The guy was convicted. Rightly so.

[nagantguy]

I speak of using law enforcement ammo for your local PD I your carry gun to aid in the reasonable man defense, I. MI when carrying and using your weapon in self defense you must be innocent of any crime, I. a 0lace where you can legally be, not have acted before hand with malic, picture it this way ; the a prococutor or some scumbags civil attorney says Mr. smith, why did you shoot Mr brown 3 times on July 5th? well I was walking to my car after work, third shift, and I saw a guy come out of the shadows, it startled me I took two.steps back away from him, he demand I give him money, I said no get back, he came twards me I yelled get away from me I have a gun, he brandished a knife, or what I thought was a knife turned out to be a screw driver. I derwent my weapon and pointed it at hi and he lunged towards me, and I feared for my life , the threat didn't stop until the third shot. But Mr Smith the ammunition in your weapon was jacketed hollow points, they caused grievous damage to Mr Browns body, hollow point ammunition is so damaging to human flesh that it's banned in warfare by the Hauge convention. Yes sir that may be true but it's the same ammo the is issued to my sheriffs department because of reliability, effectiveness and it's less likely to over penatrate .

I do not think did not state nor believe that hand loaded ammo is better worse, illegal, more deadly, a good idea or bad, just that going with common police ammo is one idea that could benifit you and believe it or not many departments use ammo that works very well, and yes whatever you use try it extensively in your carry gun, the weapon may hate it. most defensive type ammo these days is good stuff that feeds well across a wide range of weapon systems.
and again function is number one, accuracy is number two, 8.5 ×11 at 21 feet to arm length distance is not hard to achive.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Personally I carry revolvers and I prefer Speer Gold Dot ammo for my various revolver calibers. I do own a Glock 19 and 26 (both 9mms). I to was overwhelmed by the choices and prices of SD ammo and couldn't afford to run enough ammo through my 9s to insure confidence or reliability. In the end I bought the bulk Winchester white box hollow point ammo. Winchesters ammo functions reliably and I was able to run about 300rds per gun without breaking the bank.

[nagantguy]

I speak of using law enforcement ammo for your local PD I your carry gun to aid in the reasonable man defense, I. MI when carrying and using your weapon in self defense you must be innocent of any crime, I. a 0lace where you can legally be, not have acted before hand with malic, picture it this way ; the a prococutor or some scumbags civil attorney says Mr. smith, why did you shoot Mr brown 3 times on July 5th? well I was walking to my car after work, third shift, and I saw a guy come out of the shadows, it startled me I took two.steps back away from him, he demand I give him money, I said no get back, he came twards me I yelled get away from me I have a gun, he brandished a knife, or what I thought was a knife turned out to be a screw driver. I derwent my weapon and pointed it at hi and he lunged towards me, and I feared for my life , the threat didn't stop until the third shot. But Mr Smith the ammunition in your weapon was jacketed hollow points, they caused grievous damage to Mr Browns body, hollow point ammunition is so damaging to human flesh that it's banned in warfare by the Hauge convention. Yes sir that may be true but it's the same ammo the is issued to my sheriffs department because of reliability, effectiveness and it's less likely to over penatrate .

I do not think did not state nor believe that hand loaded ammo is better worse, illegal, more deadly, a good idea or bad, just that going with common police ammo is one idea that could benifit you and believe it or not many departments use ammo that works very well, and yes whatever you use try it extensively in your carry gun, the weapon may hate it. most defensive type ammo these days is good stuff that feeds well across a wide range of weapon systems.
and again function is number one, accuracy is number two, 8.5 ×11 at 21 feet to arm length distance is not hard to achive.