Stainless Pin Tumbling, A Curious Observation

[therealhitman]

I shake my cases in a big towel after wet tumbling and then put them into my Harbor Freight Brass Dryer for about a half an hour. Dry and toasty warm!

[dudel]

I guess I'm a real knuckle dragging troglodite. I am unconvinced that the SS pins are the best way to clean cases. I have a buddy who swears by it and loves the way the cases come out looking. He's using the Lemi-shine, too. But I know in my mind that the SS pins are much harder than my brass cases, and I just can't get my mind wrapped around its NOT wearing the brass more rapidly.

You may have a point. I've recently started to use SS pins to clean brass. The brass does come out looking almost like new brass. It's amazing. Haven't noticed an increase in brass life yet though.

However, I have noticed a very fine gold colored dust among the pins. I drain the water off of the pins with a gold pan type affair. The riffles keep the pins from pouring out, while the bulk of the water is dumped. Then the pins get dried and stored. I know it's not gold; so it must be bits of brass coming off the cases. Doesn't seem like a lot, considering the amount of brass being cleaned; but it does appear to be taking brass off of the cases.

[murf205]

How many 44 mag cases will the Harbor Freight single tumbler clean at a time? Is the 2 drum model worth trying-any drawbacks? How much ss media will I need for either one and where is the best place to get ss pins? My old Lyman turbo has NEVER cleaned dirty brass like the pics I've seen here. I got to try this!

[dudel]

How many 44 mag cases will the Harbor Freight single tumbler clean at a time? Is the 2 drum model worth trying-any drawbacks? How much ss media will I need for either one and where is the best place to get ss pins? My old Lyman turbo has NEVER cleaned dirty brass like the pics I've seen here. I got to try this!

Don't know about 44Mag, but I can easily get about 100+ 45Long Colt cases in a drum. So I'm guessing about 300 using both HF drums. I'd go with about a pound of pins per drum. You can get 2# of pins from STM (vendor above) See: http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.co...a-refresh.html

If you decide you like pin tumbling, the best deal I found on a FART was from Frankford Arsenal direct (it comes with pins). http://www.btibrands.com/product/pla...ry-tumbler-7l/

If using the HF, then a simple colander and bowl will work well to separate the pins from the brass. If you move up to a FART, then a media separator is VERY useful. I have a Dillon; but it has metal parts. I picked up an RCBS unit, that is all plastic. Pins seem to separate best when the cases are fully submerged.

I have both the HF and the FART. The Fart will handle big loads, the HF works will if I only have a hundred or so to clean. It helps to sort brass by case mouth. I use the FART and load 380ACP, 38Spl, 9mm and 357Sig or 45GAP, 45ACP and 45 Long Colt. As with dry media, you don't get good results if a 9mm case is in a .40 case.

[DerekP Houston]

I use the "FART" as well. It came with a package of pins and that's all I've used. I've done at most 500 cases of 38 specials, and that was a bit too much .

[Blackwater]

OK, OK! So 17nut's right! Now you guys have me intrigued with these statements of stress relieving the brass. Can you tell me more? I haven't taken any of the glossy mags now in years. Just got tired of paying for a bunch of ads and Pollyana reviews. But that's also meant I've forsaken a lot of good and valid info and newer discoveries. This thing about stress relieving via tumbling has me intrigued, and it's new to me. Can you tell me how that works? I have some metalurgical knowledge for a guy who's never done it occupationally, other than some time in a chemistry lab at a cast/malleable iron foundry, and I know about work hardening and stress relieving, but not about how SS pins do that to brass. Can anyone educate me on this? I may be a knuckle dragger, but I DO like to learn!

[DerekP Houston]

OK, OK! So 17nut's right! Now you guys have me intrigued with these statements of stress relieving the brass. Can you tell me more? I haven't taken any of the glossy mags now in years. Just got tired of paying for a bunch of ads and Pollyana reviews. But that's also meant I've forsaken a lot of good and valid info and newer discoveries. This thing about stress relieving via tumbling has me intrigued, and it's new to me. Can you tell me how that works? I have some metalurgical knowledge for a guy who's never done it occupationally, other than some time in a chemistry lab at a cast/malleable iron foundry, and I know about work hardening and stress relieving, but not about how SS pins do that to brass. Can anyone educate me on this? I may be a knuckle dragger, but I DO like to learn!

Mail me some brass and i'll clean it up with my method and send it back. I don't know what tests you want to run but I'd be happy to run a batch through for ya. I use 1 cap of wash/wax car wash No rinse formula, 1 tsp lemi shine, squirt of dawn, and hot water.

[Nueces]

I've seen 'gold dust' after pin tumbling brass. I think it comes from micro-burs in places like case mouths. After loading and tumbling several times, the dust stops appearing, so I do not think the pins are digging out chunks of brass. Really, this process is much too mild to expect any sort of brass removal.

In manufacturing, tumbling with hard media, such as ceramic shapes, is used to debur parts fresh from machining, so the appearance of metal dust is to be expected if burs are present.

[rondog]

My take is - cases are worth what, a nickle apiece? Just how many times do you really need to reload a case to get your nickle's worth? That's why I can't understand the fanaticism some folks have for "once fired" brass. The way I see it, I'm certainly getting my money's worth of use from every piece of brass.....

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Derek, but a friend has it and has been trying to get me to use his for some time now. I've watched him do his own brass, and it surely comes out very clean and shiny.

And we used to use a Wheelabrator with tiny round steel balls to do our deburring at the cast iron foundry. It left a sort of peened finish on it, and produced a bit of a sheen as well to raw castings. It got all the sand out of the recesses, too, and it was separated from the steel beads down another line.

I know from my training in criminal justice that there's a theory in crime scene investigation and science, that whenever two objects meet, there are always traces of each left on the other. Going by that, which is all the training and knowledge I have to base my own actions, I've shied away from the SS pin thing, even after seeing the great results my friend has. I still wonder about the stress relief thing. That really intrigues me. How does it work, exactly? Is it the repeated mild impacts that does it? Or what?

[JohnH]

My take is - cases are worth what, a nickle apiece? Just how many times do you really need to reload a case to get your nickle's worth? That's why I can't understand the fanaticism some folks have for "once fired" brass. The way I see it, I'm certainly getting my money's worth of use from every piece of brass.....

When was the last time you bought cases? https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...rass-100-count

[JohnH]

Thanks, Derek, but a friend has it and has been trying to get me to use his for some time now. I've watched him do his own brass, and it surely comes out very clean and shiny.

And we used to use a Wheelabrator with tiny round steel balls to do our deburring at the cast iron foundry. It left a sort of peened finish on it, and produced a bit of a sheen as well to raw castings. It got all the sand out of the recesses, too, and it was separated from the steel beads down another line.

I know from my training in criminal justice that there's a theory in crime scene investigation and science, that whenever two objects meet, there are always traces of each left on the other. Going by that, which is all the training and knowledge I have to base my own actions, I've shied away from the SS pin thing, even after seeing the great results my friend has. I still wonder about the stress relief thing. That really intrigues me. How does it work, exactly? Is it the repeated mild impacts that does it? Or what?

I don't know that there is a stress relieving thing going on. I do know from thirty + years of reloading that I should be loosing more cases than I am since I started using the wet tumbling system. I do know that peening some metals does produce a small level of stress relief. But I also notice that the cases run smoother through the sizing die, requiring less effort to resize them. This suggest to me that there is less stress being introduced into the case to begin with. Fears of the pins impact having some negative effect on the brass are nonsensical, as the brass is actually lasting longer. Prior to the wet tumbling method I was losing an average of two cases per firing/sizing cycle. Over the last six months I've not lost ten cases out of some 250 and I fire/size cycle them every other week at minimum, some cases get cycled every week. My standard load for 44 Magnum is 6.5 grains of Red Dot or 6 grains of Tite Group and a 217 grain bullet. My standard load for 45 Colt is 7 grains of Red Dot and a 200 grain bullet. Both these loads are circa 850-900 FPS loads. I could understand the 44 Mag brass lasting longer using these loads as it is heavier brass but the 45 Colt is a rather light construction case and I'm seeing the same increased case life with both. I certainly ain't complaining.

[JRPVT]

The stress relief " package" from what I can figure out is a combination of smoothing all the edges where burrs were, radiusing all the edges which makes them less prone to cracks, smoothing out imperfections so the brass will " flow" better under pressure, and the mild peening of the brass which makes it more resilient to pressure. I hope this helps, reading about all the technical stuff still gives me headaches. Translating it into something that applies to brass cases? I hope its good enough. Dave

[dudel]

I've seen 'gold dust' after pin tumbling brass. I think it comes from micro-burs in places like case mouths. After loading and tumbling several times, the dust stops appearing, so I do not think the pins are digging out chunks of brass. Really, this process is much too mild to expect any sort of brass removal.

In manufacturing, tumbling with hard media, such as ceramic shapes, is used to debur parts fresh from machining, so the appearance of metal dust is to be expected if burs are present.

I think that's reasonable. Not many of my cases have been in for a second round of pin washing; but I'll make sure to check if the "gold dust" decreases.

[dudel]

When was the last time you bought cases? https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...rass-100-count

+1

The other benefit to once fired, is that you have some idea of the pedigree of the case. You know it wasn't exposed to over pressure loads.

Some people complain about having to remove the crimp; not me. To me it's an indicator that I could be dealing with once fired brass!

[browntown]

357 mag is about 15-25c a piece new locally. I'm not crying over a few throwaways, but if a batch of 200 becomes problematic after a couple reloads -- I'd be upset. Rifle brass is where things go nuts. Especially if you buy premium brass (nosler, norma, lapua, weatherby, etc) which can run well over a dollar and sometimes close to $2 a piece. Or if you really like obscure calibers and safari cartridges they can go past $5 a piece.

I'm holding on to about 30 pieces of 308 norma. I had planned on barreling a project for it, and then changed my mind. But I keep the brass just in case, because it is about $1.50 a piece new.

Back to this batchannel. I am in the process of building a rotary tumbler based on the bigdawg design:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/34...y_tumbler.html

I understand all the arguments, lemi-shine will passivate, stainless steel is harder and would wear brass. I've come to the conclusion that I probably don't shoot enough to see any difference. But I'm subscribed to see more conversation from people smarter and more experienced.

[35remington]

Given that pistol brass loaded to your levels lasts virtually forever anyway, and given that 45 Colt brass is not near as thin as you suggest, I will suggest that you really haven't done enough shooting to figure it out yet.

I really doubt that pins "peen" brass as it's not an impact but rather sliding friction that does the work. If it was an impact one might also suggest undesirable work hardening is being done......but I don't buy that either.

[dudel]

I really doubt that pins "peen" brass as it's not an impact but rather sliding friction that does the work. If it was an impact one might also suggest undesirable work hardening is being done......but I don't buy that either.

I would tend to agree. The surface polish does not look like a peened finish. Just way too much shine.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I'll keep my eye on this, and keep watching my buddy do his brass, but I've always tended to be an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type, and will probably stick with the walnut hulls with a little jeweler's rouge. Cheaper, and sure does a great job. The sheen on cases done with the pins and the walnut hulls/jeweler's rouge is slightly different, but not by much. And I always give my fired brass a good bath with some soap and detergent in very hot tap water before tumbling. This keeps grit and stuff out of the walnut media, and helps it and the cases last longer. I let the cases dry overnight and tumble the next day. But I generally do 200+ rifle and 500+ pistol at a time, so that helps too. Way back when I was in college, I never did anything but wash in hot water with detergent, and let dry overnight, but that was usually in lots of 50-100 at a time, rifle and pistol both.

This post has intrigued me enough that I have to say thanks to all of you. Not taking the glossy mags has kept me out of touch with much that's been going on, and I've been "left behind" in a few things. Not enough to warrant resubscribing, but it helps maintain my backwardness. Lots of ways to do these things, and I'm always open to something better, but am not overly anxious to change anything either. It's what us curmudgeons do.

[murf205]

Don't know about 44Mag, but I can easily get about 100+ 45Long Colt cases in a drum. So I'm guessing about 300 using both HF drums. I'd go with about a pound of pins per drum. You can get 2# of pins from STM (vendor above) See: http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.co...a-refresh.html

If you decide you like pin tumbling, the best deal I found on a FART was from Frankford Arsenal direct (it comes with pins). http://www.btibrands.com/product/pla...ry-tumbler-7l/

If using the HF, then a simple colander and bowl will work well to separate the pins from the brass. If you move up to a FART, then a media separator is VERY useful. I have a Dillon; but it has metal parts. I picked up an RCBS unit, that is all plastic. Pins seem to separate best when the cases are fully submerged.

I have both the HF and the FART. The Fart will handle big loads, the HF works will if I only have a hundred or so to clean. It helps to sort brass by case mouth. I use the FART and load 380ACP, 38Spl, 9mm and 357Sig or 45GAP, 45ACP and 45 Long Colt. As with dry media, you don't get good results if a 9mm case is in a .40 case.

Thanks for the info. How much Dawn+Lemishine do you put in your HF drum with the 100 45 cases?