Quickload + W231 + 45Colt Round ball load : help wanted

[victorfox]

Hi, I'm trying to cook some loads for my smoothbore judge using round balls (~.440/128gr). Got Quickload 3.6 and tried some stuff since the powders we have here aren't listed and I don't have the parameters to insert them.

I tried simulating loads recommended by the local maker (CBC/Magtech) for some equivalence and found that Winchester 231 matches the velocities (and probably the pressures) very closely.

I'm using smaller than bore RB in Magtech .410 brass. I've shot this ~440 RB over 6gr of the powder I have (fast) and got reasonably decent results.

Trying to emulate a .45 Colt load, like seating the wad and ball at about .45 Colt case boolit seating depth (not compressing powder).

Simulated some loads in Quickload and came with these results, which, if they have any accuracy (smaller than bore ball - ~440 vs ~450, no rifling, and quite high speed) I'll be very satisfied. The load will be most used for some plinking, pest and small game shooting, and if need be, defense (though I keep it loaded with 4 000-buck factory loads).

Here's what I got from quickload:


To me, this looks too good to be true, so if you can see some error in any visible parameter or if you know this kind of load could work... I've loaded like this, seating wad at boolit depth, 2 RBx440, over 6gr of powder, but it lacked power. I'm almost abandoning these duplex stuff and focusing on the single ball.

If Quickload is correct (energy, velocity and pressure wise) -- and of course I'd be working up from the known, safe and tame 6gr -- I can stop my research and consider it done, since this kind of power is more than enough for my purposes.

Thanks in advance.

[nvreloader]

VF

Couple of questions,

Are you seating the RB at the case mouth/crimped there?

If so, you seating depth would be 1/2 the diameter of the RB.

You are using a card wad, what does this weigh?
You have to add the card wad weight to the RB weight = total weight,
plus the thickness of the wad is added to seating depth.

I have the latest Version of QL and have been running QL since it came out,
great program, IMHO.

Tia,
Don

[Idz]

The internal case geometry is quite different between Magtech 410 and 45 LC so your volumes have to be adjusted. How do you adjust case volume and bullet weight for the wad? Bullet being much smaller than groove diameter you will have a lot gas leakage. The correct shot start pressure with no engraving is anybodies guess. I wouldn't believe that calculation and surely wouldn't use a load that calculates so close to maximum on a first try. Pressures depend on burn rate, temperature, and dynamic volume. Burnrate depends on pressure and temperature. Everything is interconnected which makes these calculations difficult.

[nvreloader]

IDZ

All that info can be adjusted in QL,
From Case capacity/volume,
Start pressure,
Burn rate etc.

Tia,
Don

[victorfox]

Hi. I used wads with different thickness but after this QL result Im inclined to use the same diameter shown as seating deprh. I don't crimp and don't have access to a crimping die (live in brazil things aren't easy here firearm related). I just glue a card over the ball like a regular brass shotshell.
The loads I tried earlier were not bloopers but left a small amount of powder in the barrel and case.
Like you said I know from experience that 6gr will push everything out of the barrel and is quite safe. I'll work up slowly from there.
My judge is smoothbore so while it's the same gun sold in America it lacks rifling. I slugged the bore and got around .450" (not very good at reading the mike yet) and the cylinder has a step at .45 colt length.
There's a parameter in QL about starting pressure. In my case the primer alone could push the wad and ball since there's no engraving, the ball is a little smaller than bore and there's no crimp.
I already have a thread about this in CASTING FOR SHOTGUNS but after I got the Quickload thing I thought it would be more appropriate to ask elsewhere.

[nvreloader]

VF

If I understand you correctly,

You are using 2 wads, one on each side of the RB,
the top wad is glued into the case mouth?

If so, you have to add the weight of these wads to the total RB weight,
The seating depth will be the total thickness of the wads + RB diameter.

Change the start pressure to 1160 psi.

Be sure to change the total bullet weight to that of your TOTAL weight.

Rerun you QL test to see what you get.

Tia,
Don

[daschnoz]

You're going to need to "modify" the boolit design to make the math work correctly. Since the boolit (round ball) doesn't have a flat base, the volume taken up by the boolit is not your standard pi * R^2 * length. You're going to need to:

1. calculate the volume of 1/2 of the boolit
2. determine what length cylinder that volume gives you at the boolit diameter
3. add that cylinder length to 1/2 of the boolit diameter

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
The result of the above is the boolit length that you will need to enter into QuickLoad. Do not enter a seating depth. The program will calculate that based on the boolit length and the OAL.



SO (I think I got it right, but would someone please check my math anyway?)

The volume of a 0.440" dia sphere is 0.045 cu.in.
1/2 of that is 0.0225 cu.in.
Divide the above by 0.0484 (radius squared) = 0.4649.
0.4649 / pi = 0.148

0.148" is the length of a cylinder that takes the same amount of volume as 1/2 of your 0.440" round ball. The boolit length you want to enter into QuickLoads is 0.220 + 0.148 = 0.368

Again, do not enter a seating depth. The program will calculate that based on the boolit length and the OAL.

[victorfox]

Daschnoz and Nvreloader , I just run another, but using 2 balls, considering them plus the wads as total length of boolit. I'm considering the "flat base" of the wad as part of the boolit, as well as the overshot card, as if it was a big and long wadcutter style.

Am I doing it right?

I'm extrapolating about 40gr of payload, it is more like 260, 265gr with 8.5gr W231. Also considered the case length of the .45 Colt (where it makes a step on my fired cases) and seating depth at 0.0 (45 Colt "case mouth"). My main concern is achieve over pressure...

This is a simulation of 6gr powder using the same loading. Probably is correct. I loaded and shot some rounds and they lacked power to penetrate a 3/4 board and to pass tru a muscovy duck (already shot for dinner).


I'm at work now, these results I got before I started this thread. I'll have to be at home to re-run using the variables you showed me.

Thanks again.

[runfiverun]

I'm looking at your 6gr load giving about 700 fps, the weight of the ball and the speed is not gonna give good penetration.

taking your load up to 2 balls [260ish grains] will probably work a bit better but the 8.5grs will put you in low end ruger load territory [I'd have to guess at @ 20-21 K for the pressure off the top of my head]

you could walk the single ball load up to about 9.0 grains of the 231 and get about 1,000 fps and still be in the 14-K safe zone of the standard 45 colt loads.
this load would duplicate some of the older 44 caliber black powder revolver loads [and be about where the 45 colt would be too except for the boolit weight]

I would determine what the revolver can handle as far as pressure before I went past either of those loads.

[victorfox]

R5R, if I can safely put that 128gr~ ball at 1000fps using smokeless I'd be happy. I know I can use some 35-40gr of black powder for that but let's say shooting black all the time is not very practical today...
I'm sure my revolver is ok to std 45 Colt pressures. No way I want to get into Ruger territory with it...
A single ball over 6gr seated as a shotgun slug is a load I'm using with this gun, but I feel it still lacks some power. It penetrated boards ok and 2.5" in a live tree, but I want just a little more power if possible then I'll settle and stop experiments. From all the crazy stuff I'm trying may seem I'm a tinkering nut, but no, just have to find something that works good here and keep my guns shooting in a place of severe restrictions.
Thanks again.

[runfiverun]

I understand your situation, that's why I discussed the loads in the way I did.
I personally would keep on adding more powder to the single ball load.
the lyman number-3 shows a 175gr boolit with that 9.0grs of 231 I showed above as being safe in the normal 45 colt pistols.

[victorfox]

Thank you.
I sincerely thank you all who helped me a lot since I came here, tooking time and having patience with me.
I've been a bit too busy to retry the QL calcs, but will retry ASAP and also start some progressive loads.
Too bad for me, I have about 50 rounds of experimental loads ready but having too little time for range... I have a day job and run a small business so you can figure out...
Thanks again, will post whatever I'm able to find.

[wiljen]

you need to lookup the 45 Mongo. It was the 9.3x74R blown out straight for use in the 45/410 Contenders. It should work equally well in the judge and data should be very similar.

[victorfox]

Sir, I'm quite aware of the .45 Mongo. Greatest problem is I live in Brazil, so I can't get a slower burning powder easily neither have access to the 9.3x74 brass. To add insult to injury, my gun is a smoothbore, supposedly "410 only" but with a stepped cylinder and a .450 bore... I'm working out with the local available materials, but thank you! Hopefully I can get into something...

[wiljen]

what powders are available? that might be a better way to start.

[victorfox]

Sir, sadly we only have CBC (Magtech) powders here and no-name and Elephant 3FG Black powder. I've been studying the smokeless we have against American and other powders and came to the conclusion one of them (216) is very close to Bullseye and W231. The other (219) is quite close to Unique and there's a 3rd one (250), that I don't want to mess with, because it's faster than the other two, probably around Red Dot quickness. All of them are not very dense and are single based.

Summing all the factors, as I said earlier elsewhere, I should be cautious, since we have little data from CBC, if I want to pursue this goal. Thanks again, you all have been very receptive and helpful in my quest!