Many ask Questions on power to kill

[leebuilder]

Hi I am with you Geezer. You seem to be speaking of experience and ethics, and I agree. Here long shots are stuff of legend our terrain is rugged. From my experience, shortest shot deer was 9 or 10 feet, longest shot 60 yards. Most were taken with 303. I putter with reduced loads in winter, no idea the velocity but I know with certainty they will be lethal upto 50 yards, they shred thick books and peirce frozen spruce 6" in diameter. Will I use them to take deer I dought it. I will stick to what I know for now. I plan to work up a deer hunting load a bit more to learn and trial. Why, because I know. I know what it is like to look for wounded deer. I know what it feels like. Never again.
Be well

[dbarry1]

Another one in agreement with you. They were hunting everything with for hundreds of years w/ charcoal burners and lead. At the club, getting a nice group at 300 yards takes some work. More exciting to wait and have your quarry in at 20-30 yards anyway.

Teach and pass on respect of the game and the love of hobby to younger generation.

[Blackwater]

There's not a post or opinion here I can really contest, even if they DO kind'a tend to go off in different directions. The simple fact is, deer and other critters can be killed via multiple methods. The factors I consider important are enough velocity and bullet wt. to enable sufficient penetration to reach the vitals. That is the base line for me. Beyond that, larger dia., higher velocity. Next, bullet shape and alloy. If any of these are off, as in too soft or too hard an alloy, too much velocity for the bullet and lube, etc., etc. the results will be affected adversely.

Back when I was casting and shooting a lot of HP's, I played with alloys and found a great deal of difference in the penetration and bullet integrity of the little Lee 150-SWCHP that came out finished at 142 gr., nominally. It was a good bullet and did good things for me. A friend shot 2 deer with some I gave him, and both were DRT, but he shot one in the brain and another was a lucky running shot at over 200 yds. with a 4" .38. The bullet luckily hit it in the neck and it tumbled end over end like a rabbit. It was already wounded and he knew if it reached the big thicket it was headed for, it would be lost, so he gave it a try and won the lottery with his shot (3rd attempt).

When I started loading for BPCR, I heard folks talk about a "balanced load." I finally realized what they were talking about with some practice and experience. And it's true there, and I think it's a pretty good way to look at our tools for the field. Cast or jacketed, there's really got to be some balance in it. In '06, .270 and 6mm, and any other caliber, you've got to know the expansion qualities of the bullet you choose. Some brands expand more or less rapidly than the rest, and those tend to give more penetration. Balance that knowledge with knowledge of what it takes to take down the game you're after and you'll be happy. Fail to and it might prove disappointing. Deer, though, are essentially easy to kill if you do your part on placement, along with using the right bullet.

44man's theory he revealed in another thread here that there's a distinct difference between arteries and vessels that are torn as opposed to being more cleanly cut by the ojive of the bullet we've chosen has me convinced there's some real validity to that as well. It's the only theory that I've come across that explains the seemingly "magical" effect (exaggerated, but noticable) of the LBT type bullets. There've been far too many reports from reliable sources of their working much better than many other designs that I've gotta' give 'em a try. It's on my agenda, if I can just get to it. Take a flexible plastic tube (representing an artery) and stretch it until it breaks, and what happens? The dia. of the tube gets smaller as it stretches, which in the case of an artery, means it'd allow less blood to leak - maybe MUCH less. Cut it cleanly, though, and it'll leak at full flow for that particular artery, vein or capillary. This seems to be a result of the pretty "sharp" corners of the LBT type ojives, and broad, flat points. They seem, I'm conjecturing, to just maximize the available "stopping power" of any given caliber. The Ranch Dog bullets should prove equally effective, I'd think, or any other bullet with broad flat nose and sharp, cutting ojive. But that's just theory so far for me, and 44man put it forth as just the only explanation he'd found for some strange things he's seen in the woods in shooting deer.

If anybody here has it all figured out, you're smarter than me, and likely more experienced as well. One thing I noted in skinning and autopsying well over 300 deer in my time is that it really doesn't take all that much to kill a deer cleanly, and a .30/30 does really well with Jbullets and full loads. Never got to skin many shot with cast, and all those were from pistols. So I've got more to do, it seems, to have what I'd consider fairly definitive insight into what all it really takes for deer. And Suo Gan, you might want to use a softer alloy in your .30/30 if you're having any trouble getting good, quick kills. I don't KNOW that, but on the basis of what I've observed, simply offer that as a possibility you might want to investigate.

Hunting is a strange thing, sometimes, and the results we get aren't always as predictable as we'd like them to be. Anyone who spends much time in the woods will see things that seem inexplicable at times. But general rules will also tend to stand out, so .... we keep trying things until we find something that really works for us. Lots depends on how we use what we've got, and whether we keep what we've got within its due bounds. Lots and lots of variables, and too little time to test them all out. That's why this board is so valuable. We can glean from the experiences of others. More data usually equals better results, and I for one am grateful for that.

[horsesoldier]

Energy is a meaning less figure. I want a bullet with a high sectional density that will penetrate in a straight line and exit. Dumping energy is meaningless. Exits make good blood trails.

[tdoyka]

i have killed alot of whitetails using j words back in my younger days. as i seem to recall, every deer was drt. when i moved up to the '06 with j words, every deer was drt. whether round nose or flat nose these bullets did work.

then came my love affair with the 7mm-08 and 7mm mauser. i was using a 139gr hornady flat point and it got 1/2 of the deer drt and the other half ran 10-30 yards before they gave up the ghost. my 270 with 130gr ballistic tips only had two or three that were drt, the rest ran 10-50 yards away. the 6.5 creedmoor, 243 and others using pointed j words did the same thing that my 270 did. all were going at about max velocity.

i have only used the cast boolit one time on a deer, but i'm forever in love with the cast gods. my 30-40 krag with the 165gr ranch dog going roughly 1800fps(25.5gr of h4198) put the smackdown on a doe(boom, thawp, drt) at 93 yards. the rd entered the shoulder, took out both lungs and the heart and then it broke a rib on the way out. i believe that the entrance wound was around the same size as the boolit(.311") and the exit wound appeared to be roughly 1". i do remember that the heart was undamaged expect the .311" hole that was drill thru it. the lungs i did bother to look at them. i should have, but i was amazed at the hole the heart had. muscle damage was minimal, even tho i shot it on the shoulder. i can and have eating right up to the hole.

i'm in love with the ranch dog design. i'm also a fan of the wide flat nose, does wonders for my 444. them wide boolits make wide holes thru the deer. and so far, they put them down drt. i don't try to do a 300+ yarder on the deer, 150 yards is enough for me.

[Digital Dan]

Any of you with a few spare moments (fast readers) or a few hours (average Joes) take a look...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html

[M-Tecs]

Any of you with a few spare moments (fast readers) or a few hours (average Joes) take a look...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html

I'm a fast reader but this one is still going to take awhile.

[tdoyka]

I'm a fast reader but this one is still going to take awhile.

x2 its going to take a little bit for me also

[Digital Dan]

Had my tongue in cheek when I wrote that....it is a lot of reading, but educational in many regards.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I personally think sub 35 cal cast bullets aren't that good at killing. Ive killed deer with 30 cal rifles with cast and to be honest gave the practice up because even with good shots we were tracking wounded deer. Yes they will kill but not with the authority of a larger caliber or a jacketed load at higher velocity. I sure wouldn't want to bet a once in a lifetime moose hunt on a 3030 even with jacketed bullets. Sure it would get it done in 80 percent of situations but id prefer something like a 300 mag or at least an 06 that put a bit more authority on my target. Anymore with cast my guns start at .35 cal. and even then I'm looking for the biggest metplat I can find.

I'll take velocity and bullet weight with reasonable accuracy over pin point accuracy and low velocity. If that's a crutch I guess I don't know how I kill any animals. Certainly not in the numbers I do every year.

My accuracy demands are probably alot higher than most though.

[jcren]

Totally bogus statement. Energy not related to dia. so 150gr@2k fps = 1172 @100 1000gr@200 fps = 65, 1000gr@50 fps = 1 @ 10 feet. What do you want to get hit by? Energy provides penetration.
SD = #/D^2. 100gr 30 cal = .1; 100gr 50 cal = .056; 200gr 50 cal = .11 - so?

A long piece of baling wire has a unbeatable sectional density....

[M-Tecs]

Between bow, rifle, muzzleloader and handgun I have killed close to 200 head of big game (since 1972 lost one deer with the bow and one deer with the rifle). I am not counting the pigs, cattle, horses and deer dispatched with a 22LR. My one and only buffalo bull was with a 375 Win. levergun. Effective killing of game boils down to one thing and one thing only. That's inducing sufficient damage to the organs or central nervous system to induce a human and quick kill. I prefer to have good penetration and energy transfer with energy transfer being the most important. Exist are nice if you need to track but not necessary. Unless you sever spine energy transfer is what damages the organs and promotes blood loss.

The three most difficult recoveries I had have been with a 270 Win, 338 Win. Mag and a 375 H&H. The issue was not shot placement but bullet selection. I was using jacketed bullets designed for much heavier game. The 270 was a mule deer buck. I double lung him three times and he still made it 3/4 of a mile. He was to sick to cross the fence or I would have lost him. Needed a fourth shot to the head. Had I been using 130 soft points or my 22-250 will 55 grain soft points he wouldn't have made it 30 yards on the first shot. Same of the 338 and 375. I shot maybe a dozen and half with the 338 using 210 Nosler partitions. I don't remember if I had to track any but a don't believe so. The two I shot with 338 bullets designed for much heavier game required significant tracking.

Never had to track any of the ones shot with the .223, 22-250 or 220 Swift. Each shot was a perfect boardside with a 55 soft point behind the shoulder double lunging. No exist but also no tracking required. The lungs just turned to mush.

[Harter66]

Because I live in a 1 by tag lottery draw state I've read every word of the law and checked lots of legality of loads .
A 223 from a 24" bbl with a Speer 55 gr BTSP loaded to the gills according to the tables will make 1024 ftlb @100 yd. Because it is 22 cal and has a 2"OAL it is legal . We all know what happens on impact and even a well made heavy jacketed will make a huge cavity and may or may not go deep enough . I've seen a number of deer killed 1 hop dead with a similar Sierra SP in a 22-250 .
Take a ported Marlin 18" Guide Gun in 45-70 and drop a 350 gr Remington factory HP in it take the advertised velocity subtract 300 fps for porting and 6" of bbl check the Speer tables and it doesn't make the cut although actual Chrony numbers might make up the needed 3 ftlb @100. Now if a guy is hunting elk ,bear and on down with a 45-70 GG there's a pretty good chance that he's not shooting factory default ammo and that he's apt to have it stuck in whatevers ear before he pulls the trigger . Because it's legal doesn't make it right . Because you can poke only and exit in an empty can every time at 200 yards doesn't mean the 950 ftlb is going to poke Bambi's eye out or pass through the vitals .

Based on 1st hand experience I can tell you that both a slow moving fat flat nose bullet and long heavy high stepping smaller caliber will make dead critters equally as well .
A 200gr .500 BC cast just hard enough to get it out the bbl at 1900 fps will leave the same or very similar 80 yd wound to a 150 gr BTSP at 2700 fps with a .321 BC .
A 262 gr 452-252 at 1000 fps will go 22" through the vitals of a 165# hoof weight hog at 17 yd and the hog will continue to run over 200 yd before falling down in a pool of its own foamy blood . A 145 # hog punched through both lungs just behind the heart will take 3-5 steps semi circle and fall in a heap at 47 yd as will a 135# hog at feet shot high inside the rt front shoulder with a cut in the left inside ham .

I lost 2 deer about 3 yr ago both shot at most 150 yd with the above mentioned 2700 fps 150 gr 30 cal BTSP both went down both were hit well and both should have been dead by the wound itself or by blood out and shock trauma assuming the the baseball sized exit wasn't enough. I followed blood for over a mile and a 200yd grid in knee to hip deep sage brush searching for both of them.

I've seen a hog take a 264 WM with 140 gr Winchester at 40 yd have a boot sized exit and another just have some bulged and torn skin . Same load, same range, same weight different angle.

The 1st deer I killed was when I was 14 Dad's 25-06 117 gr Partition 3100 fps 350 yd held for the wind and letter' rip. Smoked the neck in and ugly bad way . That 4x4 hit the ground hard enough to break a chip off an antler tip. Same rifle and load left a bigger entry wound than exit on a 125 yd buck . Both mulie. We don't talk about the white tail damage of 3 yr ago it's too ugly.

What we argue too often is pass through or energy dump? Or is it where we put it ? In the end it is about consistency and tissue disruption. It doesn't matter how it's done whether it is a dead pellet off 00B just under 800 fps at impact or a bronze wad cutter at 2500 fps or some super duper magical super bullet if you cut an ear or skintit they wander off someplace and someone else gets a chance. If you get central nervous system, heart ,lungs ,liver and or major arteries with almost any other broken bones the animal normally won't get far.

I see a lot of ethos I disagree with here too but that's me and that's you and I suppose if there were known bears I would decline to go stomping around in a thicket too ,but not in the late season .

I think the harvest,kill what have you is between you and the quarey and whatever deity you choose or deny. Me I figure I will have to answer to the elders so it's best to leave as few questions as possible , I'll be there the 1st month before we get to adolescence and it might take a year or more to get to 21.

[Digital Dan]

I'm gonna call CCI and see if I can talk them into making an AI version of their CBs.

[Lead Fred]

Do not tell me my 30-30 loads of an elongated bullet are not enough to kill a deer/bear or moose. Sorry you are wrong all the way.

A guy I know has a bison herd. Every year he uses his great grand father's Winchester 30WCF
He is a third generation herder. Still using the original rifle they started with.

[Digital Dan]

Up until I joined the service, the only rifle I'd ever fired was a couple of .22 RF guns, more in the carny gallery than anything else. I've shot a few more of those since and a number of CF rifles, as much for hunting as anything else. Shooting paper really isn't my bag. Fact of it is that I was raised with a shotgun in my hand and was late getting started in the world of rifles.

There was a time back in the mid '90s when the missus and me owned a fair track of bottom country just north of Dublin, GA. Near about overrun with hogs and I whacked a bunch of them with every bore shotgun there is and a few with rifles, but not many. 77 was the tally. Never had to shoot one of them twice with anything, most of them went down with #3 buck from an Ithaca 37. Few years later I wound up as a volunteer in a feral hog eradication program for Florida in preserve lands across the street from the house. I quit counting heads a couple years back when a neighbor joined the fray and took over the record keeping. We were restricted to rimfire ammo exclusively. Because it worked I used a Contender Carbine chambered for shorts and shot CB shorts almost exclusively. At the time I transferred record keeping to my associate I had popped 88 hogs with that piece and only one took a second shot.

The reason I stuck with the CB shorts went to the matter that HV ammo, RN or HP did not perform well. Where the CBs would track straight thru the plumbing, the RN and HP ammo either veered or fragmented when it struck bone. Lesson I took from that is that bullet construction commensurate with the velocity at hand was instrumental in a successful conclusion. For example, the bullet below was removed from the hog pictured above about 6" deep in the neck muscle behind the skull.







It should be obvious the bullet deformed very little in transiting multiple bone layers. My point here is that calculated sectional density is relevant only to exterior ballistics. What is important is retained SD and that is an issue related to construction and velocity. In conjunction with momentum we have therein the combination which provides for predictable penetration. If that is coupled with precise placement all else is prattle.

I will probably irritate a few of you gentlemen when saying this, but FPE is irrelevant. Bullet performance can be properly viewed in terms of whether or not the bullet has characteristics that make it suitable for shots targeting the thoracic cavity or not. Such things should be taken to define what options are available to the shooter, not as an excuse to spray and pray. Velocity is relevant only to the extent that it is compatible with bullet construction. Ask the bison how that works.

I do not take shots that risk an uncertain outcome with anything other that belt fed guns. Lost track a long time back of the deer I've taken and at this point, the hogs as well. With the .22 RF I have declined to take an awful lot of shots because, well, I can't climb trees worth a toot.

If a person knows the limits of his skills, the capability of his chosen rifle or shotgun and has the discipline to operate within those parameters the loss of game animals will be rare. W.D.M. Bell knew that.

[leftiye]

Well said!

[w5pv]

I have lost three deer,One that I shot ahead of my dogs but failed to go check on it and that was my fault.The dogs were running two deer,I shot and killed one but but there was a hesitation and the dogs brought the other out and I thought that there was just one deer and when I was hunting a couple of days later I saw the vultures and when I went to check it was a dead six pointer.The other two were stolen after being gutted and hung up.Some one stole one while I was going to get my truck and the other maybe a mountain lion got it or some wetbacks that crossed our lease could have,I just don't know but it was gone.

[Digital Dan]

IMHO energy rules/law for hunting is to provide an easy guideline to minimize injured animals.

They do not. As example, Georgia allows hunting with ANY centerfire rifle of .22 caliber or larger. There is no energy reference.

Florida allows deer and hog hunting with any CF cartridge.

[Edward]

I am sure the deer my kids grew up on /17 yrs 4-5 per year were not thrilled to hear the 183 FPS cedar shaft incoming and some times going thru powered by a 55 and 65 LB stik bow .My kids always ate good and they did not suffer blood shot meat with broken bones .Selective shots and every day practice year round worked for me ,over kill comes to mind