So what the hell happened here?!!!

[Tumtatty]

I was at the range today and had a bad thing happen.

Using:

• Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec
  Used range brass (how many uses...got me)
  5.0 gr Titegroup
  Lee TL452-200-SWC
  CCI Primers (I have had trouble loading these. Some do not fit and fall apart when loading on my Lee Turret Press).

So what happened here besides getting the crap scared out of me?

[44man]

I take it you had a high primer and it went off when stripping it from the magazine. More info please.

[Ben Dover]

I'm sure you recognize the rupture of the casing where it is unsupported. Your question will be what factors conspired to effect the pressure rise to the point of brass failure. Then, how to avoid a duplication. Glad you were uninjured. Lets hear from others. Ben

[Tumtatty]

I take it you had a high primer and it went off when stripping it from the magazine. More info please.

I don't think so.

My friend was the actual shooter and I was standing behind him. He fired the round and there was a blast of black soot that got on his hands and some on his face.

The gun was locked and difficult to work the slide. That piece of brass is what came out.

If anything these primers were too compressed. Like I said, the CCI primers did not fit very well. Some were too hard to get in and came apart in the press or shaved apart on the brass. About 1 to 2 in 10 loads had to be redone due to this problem. All primers were seated correctly (I thought) on the rounds I brought to the range though.

Thanks for the help.

[44man]

That cartridge was not fully chambered.

[Tumtatty]

I have had several rounds not load correctly in the chamber. Is that a function of the diameter of the boolit? I've sized them to .452. with an OAL of 1.157 and i use the Lee Crimp Die.
Here is a pic.

[docone31]

I had that happen multiple times in my old semi Thompson .45 wanna be.
It looks like it is a double charge. I do not know how much space the charge of titegroup takes up.
It seems that way to me, as the primer pocket is stretched and the primer is missing. When my Thompson outfired, it only tore a small hole in the case at the point where the magazine and barrel met.
It could also have been a brittle case. Notice the cracks in the primer pocket. The lower photo shows the ramp shape, then the blow off. It might be case head separation. Without knowing the age of the case, it is guess work.
I bet that woke you up.
I got sprayed once by my Thompson. I never got it to not jam and fire. I got rid of it. Looked great, but, phooey.

[sundog]

That brass may have been previously shot in an unsupported chamber. Do you remember if any of your brass had a bulge just forward of the extractor groove the first time you resized it? Did you pick up the rnge brass originally, or buy it already cleaned and sized/deprimed?

[Tumtatty]

That brass may have been previously shot in an unsupported chamber. Do you remember if any of your brass had a bulge just forward of the extractor groove the first time you resized it? Did you pick up the rnge brass originally, or buy it already cleaned and sized/deprimed?

This was pure range pickup. I grabbed about 200 cases one day at the range and that's what I've been using. This was only my 3rd outing with this pistol.

I did not notice any defects in the brass.

[38 Super Auto]

It looks to me as if the round were fully chambered, but the load was, like papa bear's porridge, too hot.

I have seen a similar indication short of a ruptured case on some 45 loads with 250gr SWCs and max charge of 231. We shot them last winter and they proved to be near max pressure or slightly over.

You can see that the rupture occurred on the part of the case on the link side of the chamber where it is unsupported. The case stretches, where unsupported, and has a telltale profile of the chamber on the brass.

[HeavyMetal]

I've seen case's like this before.

Unfortuntely a lot of possible reasons exist. The classic is someone over ramped the barrel in an attempt to improve feeding. If the weapon is unaltered then I will suggest the following:

1 a piece of brass that should have been scrapped and wasn't, I suggest examining the others you picked up in the same lot of "range" brass.

2 bullet was not seated correctly, to far out, and the round was able to fire out of battery.

3 over charged with powder. Which is why I don't like a press that auto index's!

4 the possibility exists that the wrong powder was chosen?? Unlikely but possible.


There is a 5th reason for this and I will post my thought on this although highly unlikely: The possiblity exists that as the primers were "crushed" one became very sensative and was "slam" fired before going fully into battery.

I will suspect reason 5 was your issue. I had problems with CCI primers years ago, in 45 auto brass in particular, but several pistol cases in general. I stopped using CCI for a long time because of this problem. Some time back I read they fixed this issue and I have used current CCI primers with no further issue as to fit in the primer pocket.

You did not say how old the CCI primers were? Were they new production or NOS surplus?

Not being in the "co pilot" seat when this type of accident happens leaves us making nothing but guess's. Hope I helped solve the problem.

By the way if you agree with me that it was an old stock CCI primer problem I'd pull the rest of this ammo down scrap the primers and start over! The next surprise could have a brother in the next cartridge down the mag and set it off as well! I have seen the results of chain reaction detonation in 38 supers loaded to hot! My understanding is it leaves one with an unusual "tingling" in the hands!

[windrider919]

Welcome to the wonderful world of 1911 shooting. It has happened to lots of people.
My first thought is that there was an overcharge of powder. But a real double charge would have done more damage. My next thought is that "Brass has a lifespan, it weakens there each shot and your brass should be retired. It looks well used in the pictures. You did not mention where in the shot string it happened, was it the first shot or was it later. Did it happen when it chambered (high Primer) or when the trigger was pulled? How was the bullet secured? IE: what type of case pressure was holding the bullet. Old cases [weak] that are not taper crimped can let the bullet be knocked deeper into the case from recoil as shots are fired and it is several down in the mag. That reduced case volume increases pressure. Also, I have see where a spider nest in some old salvaged brass caused reduced case volume and raised pressure and a blowout. The clasic reason for case rupture is over polishing the feed ramp till too much case is unsupported. Ocasionally, you can get a 1911 to fire if certain parts are worn or mis machined and the pistol does not go completely into battery, IE: lock up; although this is extreamly rare. Have parts been replaced on this pistol? Rebuilt by an amature?
Your comments on primers were distirbing. If I was having that kind of problems I would stop right there and locate the cause.

After I first posted I saw you next picture of a loaded round. I think you are over crimping the cartridge. 45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth and a roll crimp lets the case extend into the barrel. That is why you should use a taper crimp. In old NRA articles i seem to remember that excessive pressure has been seen on occasion from roll crimping. It does not take much overpressure to blow out the unsupported area on a ACP case. Besides, roll crimping gives less accuracy.

[Tumtatty]

What signs do I look for when picking up range brass?

This pistol was unmodified. I bought it new a couple weeks ago.

Could I have been seating the boolits too deep? I was basically following the design of the SWC and seating the booolit to the base of the cone.


The CCI primers were new from the gun store. I have used Winchester in the past but they were out. I have 500 left. I'm not sure if the gun store will take them back. I will certainly not buy these again.

[billyb]

I think you may have got an overcharge, reasons, brass extruded into extracter chanel, to -of auto flanted to the point of not to depth of a normal case, bottom picture you can see to the point the case was supported right up to the case grove. Very glad no one was hurt.clothing can be washed, parts for the body are hard to replace. Bill

[HeavyMetal]

I don't think your boolits are seated to deep looks, like shoulder is flush with the case mouth.

I have never had 45 case's seperate at the head, usually they crack at the case mouth, but I would in this case pull some down, randomly, and shine the light of day in the case and check the case head area for cracks. I'd also double check powder charges?

I re read your original post and see your using tumble lube boolits? Check diameters again!

In your place I'd be going nuts until I solved this problem! That would mean double check everything I might have done wrong, and don't think this is critizing it's not! I will plainly admit that I've had an issue or two in my day, last year I fired a 7.62x39 round in very pristine 308 caliber Savage 99 your case looks way better than that one did, so don't feel alone, just check everything!

[docone31]

It looks too low for case head seperation. It was also in battery from the looks of the feed ramp shape on the case.
I load mine with Blue Dot. A double charge runs out of the case. So far, I have never had that happen. I always go real slow though. I set up a mirror so I can see the charge.
I am gonna bet it was an old case. I have always avoided picking up a lot of cases. Spider webs, crud, weather exposure. I pick up my spent cases.
That must have led to some interesting conversation shortly after. Those 1911s are pretty tough.
Did the casting exit the bore? At .452 I bet it did.
I use a buffer, and I have run some pretty hot loads through mine. Never seemed to be an advantage.
How does TiteGroup measure through your measure?
Could it have been a light load?
Glad no one got bit.

[Tumtatty]

What would cause the round to not feed all the way in?

I've probably shot about 200 rounds with this recipe. I've had 10+ not feed correctly. I would eject the round and finish the clip. Then I'd reload the round in the empty clip and they always feed fine the 2nd time. Not sure what the problem is there. It may have been that this round did not feed completely (although it must have been nearly there for the gun to cycle) and the unsupported case ruptured.

Titegroup measures pretty consistently through my measure. I could have easily put 2 loads in the case. I just ran a test and got 3 in there and it was still not overflowing. I hope I didn't give a double load.

[randyrat]

Don't put clips in your weapon anymore use magzines.
Sure looks like out of battery fired brass. Because, look at the distinctive ringe or edge of the chamber on the edge of the damaged brass and the way it peeled back. It wouldn't have peeled back if it was all the way in the chamber when it was fired and that ringe would be back farther, like more on the web of the brass. Do you have a real week firing pin spring? Week firing pin spring along with a slightly large bullet + dirty chamber. I'm quessing... Firing pin stuck forward.. dirt or grime in near the firing pin.

[DLCTEX]

I do not seat SWC that deep. I leave at least 20 to 50 thou. or more of the shoulder out of the case, they feed better that way. With the TL boolit I would crimp in the last groove. This will give a better crimp and prevent the boolit being driven into the case during feeding. Using the barrel for a guage, seat the boolits just below the point that will dependably seat the round deep enough to chamber, leaving a little room for fouling or dried lube, etc. Maybe .005 or less. The boolit shoulder will not snag as much as the case mouth will. Brass fired in Glocks particularly may have a swelled area in front of the extractor groove that weakens the brass even when resized and can lead to feed problems unless fully sized all the way. Just my dos centavos. DALE

[Boomer Mikey]

That looks like too much powder... or a bullet pushed too deep in the chambering process. I use TiteGroup in my 1911 MilSpec; that case appears to be completely chambered. The case blew out in the unsupported area at the feed ramp into the magazine. 5 grains of TiteGroup is a max load with 230's, 6 grains with a 200 SWC is a +P load and regular cases will bulge at the feed ramp with that load.

I experienced TiteGroup bridging in a powder measure that had a static charge once before... one of the reasons I always drop charges manually with a drop tube to watch each charge go into the cases and never load bullets into cases unless I visually inspect each charge in each case.

Drop two charges in a case and compare to a single charge; it's easy to see the difference, if you look carefully you can see a 1-1/2 charge.

TiteGroup is an excellent powder but using it demands attention to detail.

You said you're using a Lee factory crimp; I recommend using a taper crimp, or Lee Carbide Factory crimp die and adjusting the die to size cases to no larger than 0.471" at the case mouth. Measure your loads to see what the diameter is at the case mouth... too large and they won't chamber completely, they'll vary with the thickness of the brass in different brands. All your loads should fall into and out of the chamber. Remove the barrel and drop your loads into the chamber... the case should drop completely into the chamber and the rim should be flush or below the hood; then see if they fall out when you tip the barrel up... they should.

I agree that SWC's should be seated with the front driving band 25-50 thousandths outside the case mouth. Doing so permits the crimp die to set the inside case edge into the bullet making it harder to push the bullet deeper into the case... another possible explination for this event.

The MilSpec has a throated barrel with a polished feed ramp; seating SWC bullets a little longer shouldn't cause any chambering problems as long as they feed in the magazine well.

I use lots of range pickup brass in my 45's and 9mm, with normal inspection and preperation I've found it very reliable and without issue.

Boomer