45acp boolits fired heavy and slow vice light and fast.

[Follow Me]

Greetings to all,
A short while ago I was in the company of friends, all Combat Infantry Badge awardees (some young, some old) discussing the merits of the iconic 1911 A1 and the 230 gr FMJ RN bullet in its original role/ intended purpose of stopping the enemy. One younger guy told of being around some "other unit Shooters" down in "The Mog" that were carrying ammo loaded with 180 gr SWC projo's. Reason was they (the bullets) hit hard and made a much bigger hole and that the adversaries "bleed out faster" which effectively countered the ever present drugs. The younger guy also said that the SWC's were not GI issue. On several levels, the reaoning makes sense. I'm aware of the reasoning behind the 45acp round/bullet. This subject is the core reason that the expensive "Defense" ammo sells so well.
Someone please expound on the current "layman" thinking concerning the "heavy and slow bullet hole versus light and fast crater/hole.
BTW, there is probably "Geneva Convention" issues for the military person. I just don't remember. If this subject offends anyone's moral sensibilities, I sincerely apologize and ask the Moderator to erase the post.
Thanks

Follow Me
"I am the Infantry, Queen of Battle, Follow Me"

[nagantguy]

Not offended and not a signator of the Geneva convention, the slow/large vs fast light argument is not a can of worms it's a crate of worms, it's Pandoras box....both have merits, at cast velocities the slow heavy for caliber argument makes lots of sense. ..I also.wont argue that my 7mm Weatherby mag shooting lighter bullets kills like lighting....and then there is the middle.ground a mid weight projectile reaching the low.end of fast....all have there place. In my ecd a .45 1911 I stoke 230 grain speer gold dots, slow and heavy, wife's social load is 125 grain .357 loaded .5 parsecs past light speed.....I'd not want to be on the receiving end of either and neither is a guaranteed one shot fight stopper....no such thing.

[Outpost75]

A full charge 185-grain FMJ semi-wadcutter approaching 1000 fps would be a more effective load than hardball if guns were set up to feed it reliably.

[Bigslug]

In this case you're dealing more with shape than weight and speed.

A round nose is going to tend to push tissue aside. A flat nose will stretch, tear, and crush much more effectively. At the end of the day, most hollowpoints are just turning themselves into flat noses that penetrate a little less because of the increased diameter.

As for the current thinking - modern wound ballistic theory is based heavily on the lessons leaned most notably from the 1986 FBI Miami shooter, but also from other shootings in the '80's where light and fast wasn't doing the job. The FBI's conclusion was that in order to be effective a round had to:

1. Be shot accurately into something vital.
2. Penetrate enough to reach something vital.
3. ONLY after the above two conditions are met does larger diameter (either through expansion or just being a big bullet) start to be desirable; in short, the ugly crater on the surface doesn't help - the bullet must reach arteries, nerve clusters, vital organs, etc..., or, as I like to say, the Tootsie-Roll center of the Tootsiepop.

The best way - I think - to play within the silly Hague Convention rules and still have an effective handgun is to roll with truncated cone or other form of flat-nosed FMJ of a heavy-for-caliber weight; i.e., 230 grains for the .45, 135-147 grains for 9mm, 180 grains for .40, etc... These will penetrate in a pretty straight line, so if your aim at the Tootsiepop is good, the bullet will reliably transect those important organs, not deviate appreciably on bone, and leave an exit wound to let more blood out and more air in.

[jcren]

I can tell you that a 255 swc over 6grains of unique hit harder and transfer far more energy into targets and critters than any 200 grain +p I have tried. Given, the largest living thing I have used them on was a massive armadillo (y'all that have them know they are tough) but they are impressive.

[Hickok]

I believe a fast 180 SWC would be better than a slow 230 RN when putting down a enemy.

SWC trumps round-nose, but a heavy SWC or flat point trumps a light SWC or flat nose. Just my thoughts.

Therefore in the 45ACP, I prefer a 230 SWC or with large flat meplat.

[runfiverun]

the U.S. didn't sign on at the convention.
I always want a flat nose and 2 holes no matter what I'm using the bullet for.

[Tim357]

Military ammunition is covered by the Hague Accords, not the Geneva Convention. GC covers treatment of POWs.

[Lead Fred]

The 230gr has been saving GIs lives for over 100 years, saved my ole Man's bacon in WWII.
Heck Tom Hanks blow up a tank with his ! (well he shot at it any how)

I use 230 jacketed for real, and 230 cast RNPB for practice. I pushem about 900fps
Nothing gets up, so they do their job

[OS OK]

It's easy to 'armchair' this topic but until faced with the 'event' in real time…who knows. When that 'fight or flight' and 'adrenaline' kicks in you cannot be sure exactly how you will react. I know how we all 'practice' and try to be 'mentally prepared', carry the right rounds in our weapons but I think one aspect should not go unnoticed…

'Shoot until the threat is down'.

[DougGuy]

^^^^ +1 This..

Let's just say that a heavy slow 230gr RN from a 1911 and a 185gr Star Wars exploding, spinning, phosphorescent frangible from a 1911 is a LOT BETTER than NO 1911 and let both camps win!

Actually I am a big fan of ANY .45 ACP round that looks like THIS after being dug out of almost 9" of red Carolina clay.. 230gr Speer Gold Dot from a Kahr CW45 with a 3.65" barrel:

[w5pv]

I have read in the past that the 230 gr fmj makes a hole on entry and a bigger hole on the exit side but inbetween it is pushing debris,twisting and pulling debris also and that whats makes it such an awsome man stopped.I have never shot anyone or saw anyone that was shot with 230 gr fmj.

[OS OK]

^^^^ +1 This..

Let's just say that a heavy slow 230gr RN from a 1911 and a 185gr Star Wars exploding, spinning, phosphorescent frangible from a 1911 is a LOT BETTER than NO 1911 and let both camps win!

Actually I am a big fan of ANY .45 ACP round that looks like THIS after being dug out of almost 9" of red Carolina clay.. 230gr Speer Gold Dot from a Kahr CW45 with a 3.65" barrel:

"Those are going to leave a mark!"

BUT...I'd rather know where I can get some of those...185gr Star Wars exploding, spinning, phosphorescent frangibles from?

[alfloyd]

R5R is correct.
"the U.S. didn't sign on at the convention."

• (IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned soft-point bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India). It was ratified by all major powers, except the United States.<sup>[15]

Lafaun</sup>

[Hickok]

I always want a flat nose and 2 holes no matter what I'm using the bullet for.

Exactly!

[Char-Gar]

This a rather interesting thread as the thinking on the 230 RN FMJ has changed 180 degrees in my shooting lifetime. The standard GI ball load came out of WWII with a rather poor reputation as a man stopper. Please take some anecdotal stories from some WWII vets with a grain of salt. Shortly after WWII, I head some of these guys say that if you hit a fellow in the ear with a 45 Auto, it would break their neck and a hit from a Jap 25 (really 6.5mm) was no more dangerous than a bee sting. The truth was the old 45 230 ball load, punched a clean neat hole in the victim.

Then along came Jeff Cooper, and he promoted the idea that "they all fall to hard ball", which I don't believe is true at all. But there was much Cooper said, that was just fantasy and he did a great job of promoting himself as "The Gunner's Guru".

Lee Jurris came along in the 70's with his Super-Vel ammo and changed the landscape. He loaded a 180 grain JHP at about 1,000 fps and they did put a hurting on a fellow right now. I still have a couple of boxes of his ammo and it feed reliably is all of my 1911s. Lee is one of the unsung heros as he started the ball rolling with jacketed bullets that expanded in revolvers and autopistols. He products were so good that the major ammo makers ganged up to put him as out business. But most, if not all, or our good bullets these days can be traced back to Lee in one way or another. Lee is still alive and kicking out in New Mexico, but he is sort of quite these days.

I am of the opinion that any round is better than the 230/RN/FMJ, Any bullets with a meplat is better than a RN and any bullet that reliably expands is best of all.

The best I can say for the old GI Ball load and it's commercial counterparts, is a nice clean 45 caliber hole is better than a nice clean 9mm hole made with 9mm ball ammo.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK I can add something to this discussion,,, The .45 ACP as originally designed by Browning had a 200 gr bullet. The Army decided it wanted a bigger bullet to more closely duplicate the ballistics of the .45LC, which was a proven man stopper. So the change was made and the bullet slowed down due to the extra weight. Both were FMJ RN's and all military ammo had/has to be.

This round has been a proven performer for over 100 years or else it wouldn't still be so popular.

I have a Glock 21SF in .45 and a Glock 35 in .40 S&W. If I was going to a fight I'd be taking the .45. Simply because the bigger bullet makes a bigger hole.

I don't put too much faith in high performance bullets simply because in order for them to do their magic you first must connect. So with that said I would submit that any hit (or two) with anything from 9mm up will have a seriously negative effect on the recipient. I also submit that a hit by a .45 will have more of that effect than a hit with a 9MM or 40. And I would extend that to a 185 versus a 230 gr bullet from the .45 as well.

The whole reason for big bullets is in fact,,, penetration! This has been true since the Buffalo Wars. Big animals are killed using large solid bullets that don't expand. People are way down the list when it comes to "hard to kill."

They had the Ballistics and Efficiency of every military cartridge completely documented by the end of WW1, and they actually had doctors in the field taking dead guys apart to see exactly what the effects of the different ammunition was. You'll notice that no changes in the ammunition were made for another 50+ years until the 5.56 came into vogue. The 5.56 is NOT a more effective round than a .30-06/.308. It is still an effective rifle round and will easily kill a man of any size, but the main reason for the change was that you can carry twice as many of them on you, thus theoretically you can kill twice as many of the enemy.

Terminal bullet performance in Jello is fine for showing what the bullet will do in a perfect world. However when shooting at people you seldom will get that perfectly squared up frontal shot that all Jello blocks get, or we all get on the square range.

My point being,,, the bullet's ability to penetrate is IMHO, Senior to it's ability to expand. If your shot is directly to the side of the target, then the bullet will have to go thru the arm before it enters the chest from the side. This is about 15-18" with the real possibility of having to go thru an arm bone as well. Raking shots at say a 45 degree angle also require more penetration to be effective.

Penetration is a direct function of Momentum.

It basically the difference between getting hit by a fast moving sports car or a slower moving bus. Both will kill you but the Bus is a sure thing.

Randy

[gwpercle]

I can't say which one is better, depends on if you want expansion or penetration.

I well remember when the 185 grain jacketed hollow points hit the scene, we would load them over 8.0 grains of Unique and shoot water filled gallon milk jugs... we thought, at the time , that was the ultimate 45 acp load. Those expanded bullets were impressive to look at. A 45 cal. hole is still big even without any expansion. I doubt they would penetrate a car body , or very much of a big hog. They both have their place.

[dondiego]

I know of an incident where a felon was shot by a local police officer through the chest twice with a 45 cal., 230 grain FMJRN and ran off. He later walked to the PD and turned himself in to get some medical treatment.

[Jim..47]

Very interesting topic. After reading all the responses above I have my own thoughts as well.
First for a 45acp which isn't a real powerful bullet or load, the only logical conclusion can be (for me that is) that you do want a full 230 Gn.s Therefore we then have 2 choices:

One would be a hard cast semi-cutter. I'm not sure how well this would feed through a 45, but if it did so well, it would probably be the best choice.

2nd would be a 230 Gn hollow point. I doubt this would give as much penetration as a semi-was cutter, but maybe I'm wrong.

In either way I think both of these would be a better choice than a lighter bullet given a defensive situation.