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Thread: Perfect(balanced) cartridge for caliber?

  1. #21
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    Interesting subject and good comments all. When I think of a "balanced" ctg., I usually view that in terms of what powders I have and the performance level I want to reach for the purpose intended. That being said, when I look at a mission I want to accomplish, I tend to view that in terms of what MIGHT happen, such as seeing a huge boar unexpectedly while pig hunting as my cousin once did, or maybe a bear in bear country when you're only intending to hunt deer. Like the Boy Scouts say, it's wise to be prepared, and that includes the calibers and rifles you carry afield.

    For deer, I'm with Hogtamer on the .270/130. It'll never fail unless bullet placement is pretty poor. The only thing that might be better on our little Southern whitetails is the .25/06/100 gr. Yet, my son's 6mm. Rem took over 30 deer, all with a single shot with the 85 gr. Speer BTSP, and two were just over 350 yds., too.

    For big hogs that CAN, if they get a mind to, hurt you, I'd really prefer my .45/70 guide gun, or at least the .44 carbine. They're in the woods here and long shots aren't likely at all, and mostly impossible, but up close and nasty would always be a possibility. We're also getting some bears in my area now. 3 have been killed on the bypass by cars in my town, so any time I go to the swamps, I like to carry a .44 pistol, just in case. Never know when you might blunder into a sow with cubs. Not likely here, but certainly not impossible.

    As to what constitutes a "balanced" ctg., it all depends on the performance level you want, and what powder you want to use to get to that level. In 7mm, if you want to use any of the med. burn rate powders, the 7x57 and 7/08 like my grandson's area about ideal. Good velocity, great killing power, and a nice balance of bullet wt., hole size and usability on a huge variety of game just by picking the right bullets for the purpose. For deer, our little southern whitetails always seem to respond most readily to the lighter, thinner jacketed ones. We almost always hunt from tree stands and generally have time to wait to get a broadside shot, or nearly so, and don't need a lot of bullet wt. or penetration go get through their back ends, etc., so it just works best to use the lighter, faster expanding bullets and just place them well forward of the diaphragm, preferably right on the little crease behind their front leg, about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the chest. If one takes one of these and runs off, it's probably because you hit the heart, and it'll run out of blood & O2 in about 50 yds. It really doesn't take a "controlled expanding" bullet on these smallish deer. The .308 is a great caliber, expecially if you want a short barreled rifle, as is the .30/30 on deer. The great thing abou the .30/30 is that every RN or FN bullet made in .30 cal. is made expressly for the .30/30's performance level and velocity. They penetrate and expand very well in all makes that I've seen, and they've been all the standard makes.

    If anyone can figure it all out, they're a lot smarter and more experienced than I am, and I have no problem at all with that. A lot of what I know also comes from a friend who has shot more deer than most people have ever seen. He's done an awful lot of cropping problem herds for farmers, and I've hunted with him often, and he's also the best natural shot I've ever seen. He's a big fan, for deer, of the .25/06, .270, 7x57 and 7/08. He doesn't like the magnums, and his experience mirrors my own in that they tend to have more deer run off after the hit due to the "controlled expansion" nature of the bullets used in them. And all the while a .25/06 or the others will almost always put them down in their tracks with a good hit. It seems counterintuitive, but when you think about it, it makes at least some sense. Maybe there really IS a thing called "overkill" after all????

    I do also think that when all's said and done, it's the hunter, and not the arm or caliber, that makes the most difference. A good hunter with a .22 RF will eat venison, and a tyro with a .458 will go hungry, most likely.

    When I go into the woods now, I always like to carry something that'll deal effectively and very quickly with a wild or rabid dog or coyote, and in the swamps, with up to a bear at close range. They normally shy away from people, and are almost never heard as they make their escape, but they're there, whether they're seen or not, normally. For me, it just winds up being a matter of choosing what it might take to survive and come home and do it all over again. For me, I guess that'll always be what I regard as a "balanced" caliber choice.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Guess it all comes down to the level of recoil you feel comfortable with and knowing your cartridge of choose when perform up to your expectations .

  3. #23
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    I bought a 7/30 waters contender bbl in '15 and am very happy with it. It is a perfect step down from the 7x57 .
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  4. #24
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    I'd have to say the .223 Rem. I have it for home defense and as a go to for a back country walking varminter. Brass is cheap. Bullet selection is broad. Low powder use. Low recoil.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    The .308 case is perfectly balanced as a .338 Federal, 3200 ft lbs of energy.
    The .30-06 case is perfectly balanced as a .338-06 , 3600 ft lbs of energy.
    Go bigger on either one and power/energy goes down.
    Go smaller, and power goes down.
    I don't think you have this right, .35 Whelen has 3760 Ft. LBs of energy.

    http://www.hornady.com/store/35-Whel...Superformance/

    Tim
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  6. #26
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    If they made a Superformance .338-06 it would exceed that. Look at some reloading data. I thought the same thing at first. But since there is no factory .338-06, I will agree that the 35 Whelen/.35 caliber is the perfect balance for that case.
    Last edited by jmort; 01-10-2016 at 12:31 PM.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy bear67's Avatar
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    Some of us drive Chevys, some Fords, Dodges, Caddys and I guess there are still Yugo drivers, so everyone has his opinion and his favorites.

    In balance if I had only one centerfire rifle it would be the old O6, but my favorite cartridge and rifles are in .257 Roberts. It was my first and surly will be the last. I have killed over 150 whitetail including deer management harvests, mule deer, 2 elk, one black bear with the used Rem 722 I bought in '58 and have had lots of fun with bullets from 87 to 120 g. I own other Bobs, but that old 722 is a trusted friend.
    The 7 x 57 fits my needs for 7mm.
    The .308 Win is great in .30
    I still enjoy the .35 Rem
    Maybe being old has moderated my need for power and punch. Heck I once had a .375 H&H--don't remember why now. My eyesight won't kill at 400 yards or I just won't try. The oldies are still goodies--Heck I just might be one of these "Oldies."
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does,he needs it very badly!" Sir Winston Churchill

  8. #28
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    If there was a perfect one, it would be the only one any of us had. Plus as we are reloaders, we get to make them into something that isn't available from the store.

  9. #29
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    This not a discussion about a single cartridge/caliber. It is a discussion about balance. Makes sense to me. An excellent thread to read.

  10. #30
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    I'm surprised the 375HH hasn't been mentioned. It's been a do everything gun for a long time.

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brstevns View Post
    Guess it all comes down to the level of recoil you feel comfortable with and knowing your cartridge of choose when perform up to your expectations .
    While very true - as a reloader I can take a cartridge and load it down but it's hard to get better performance out it than factory ammo. I have cartridges from 222 to 375 Weatherby, and I usually shoot those that are more efficent - 9mm vs 357 mag, 45 acp vs 44 mag, 308 vs 300 win mag etc.
    I have picked the ones for category of use, and those get the most range time.
    9mm, 45 acp, 44 mag for pistol plinkers
    223 & 7.62x39 cheap rifle plinkers.
    243 & 308 for long distance in good conditions.
    338 or 300 win mag for long distance in less than ideal conditons.
    358 or 375 BB for short range thumpers.
    45-70 & 375 weatherby magnum for real thumpers.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    I think a person could be well served by three rifles, all based on the .308 case. .243, .308, and .358 Win.
    I could reduce this to 7-08 and .358 win and never want for anything else for hunting.

    But I like complication so would prefer a 35 rem and a 45-70 both very efficient with a cast bullet.
    I'm just the welder, go ask him>

  13. #33
    Boolit Master bearcove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I don't think you have this right, .35 Whelen has 3760 Ft. LBs of energy.

    http://www.hornady.com/store/35-Whel...Superformance/

    Tim
    Ft. LBs of energy. Another form of hot air. Pointless statistic in my opinion.

    But I am a Whelen fan and user.
    I'm just the welder, go ask him>

  14. #34
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    What are we balancing. Recoil vs. Killing ability? That is what the OP seemed to be driving at. Something that would take a white tail at reasonable ranges without a lot of kick. Did not seem enough gun for Moose or Big Bears or Big Hogs. Maybe not enough gun for 600 yard shots on Elk or Mule Deer. Personally for big game hunting where you don't shoot a lot of rounds, the recoil from even a lightweight 30-06 does not bother me at all even if I am only wearing a tee shirt. Can't say how I would feel about a 7mm mag. or 300 mag. Anything bigger than that I would want a shooting jacket and a gun with some heft.

    There is no perfect cartridge, everyone is a compromise but very many cartridges are good enough. Just pick one of the many that will do the job.

    Tim
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  15. #35
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    That is a very good point. Nothing is perfect for everything, or we wouldn't need the variety we have. For instance, most of my hunting is in close, almost always inside 100 yards, and probably 90% of it inside 50 yards, bu that is because I have come to see the challenge in seeing how close I can get. So while today I can feed me and mine with a .357 revolver, back in my long range "hunting" days of using a heavy barreled scoped .308, I saw that as the absolute minimum caliber that was even worth hunting with. Now for some here, the range capability is an absolute must due to terrain and conditions, but I still think most of us use more than is needed. And I include myself in that. I have taken many hogs with a .22 LR pistol, but still enjoy chasing them with a .44 Mag, .45 Colt, or .45-70. I just get closer when hunting with the .22, but they die just as quick and taste just as good.
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  16. #36
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    For 22's I like the 222 Rem. Optimal case capacity for 22 bore. If you load it up to the same pressure level as a 223 performance is about the same on a 50 grain J bullet. For cast shooting it's plum better than the 223.
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  17. #37
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    My opinion is 308 for jacketed 165/168 grain bullets and 30-30 for cast 150/180 grain bullets

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hick View Post
    I'm convinced there are optimal cartridges-- but they don't always fit the intended design of the rifle.
    Quote Originally Posted by TXGunNut View Post
    To complicate your thesis I think a boolit and a j-word may very well have different "optimal" cartridges for each caliber.
    When I revisited the thread something came to mind and the I read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by JWT View Post
    I'm surprised the 375HH hasn't been mentioned. It's been a do everything gun for a long time.
    Yeah! I have a .375 H&H waiting to get a stock. For the game I hunt there is no need for full bore loads but with cast 250 grain boolits reduced with H4895 to under 2000 fps it would be a sledgehammer for pigs. The load would be about equal to what I'm shooting out of a Contender handgun in .44 Mag with 4 times the firearm weight. It should be far more pleasant to shoot.

    David
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  19. #39
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    I would say the 300 Savage is balanced better than most for power verses recoil.

  20. #40
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    Even back when I played considerably with long range shooting I still didn't like overbore cartridges.
    I found that if I spent the time at the range and maximize POA I could do all that I needed to with standard cartridges. 338 win mag or 338-06, 30-06, 7x57 etc.
    Nowadays I find that it doesn't matter much. My 30-30, 30-40, 7x57, 8x57, 30-06, all shoot a cast boolit of about 175 gr to about 1800 fps.
    My two 338 rifles run a 220 gr to about the same speed.
    I don't seem to need the power or recoil that I once thought I needed.

    If I ever get to go back out west hunting I'll revert back to my old ways for a little while.
    Some people live and learn but I mostly just live

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